"Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

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Symonds

"Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av Symonds » 10 aug 2005 19:56:02

Were these separate estates/areas in Normandy circa 1100? I am unable to
locate Mellent on old maps. As always, thank you for any enlightenment
you may be able to offer.

Marilyn

John P. Ravilious

Re: "Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 10 aug 2005 20:07:24

Dear Marilyn (and Ginny),

The county of Meulan was centered on the ville or town of
Meulan, approx. 35 km. WNW of 'downtown' Paris (ca. the Louvre and
Notre-Dame) on the Seine.

'Mellent' is an anglicization based on the Latin form, 'de
Mellento' - as in comes de Mellento [English: count of Meulan; or comte
de Meulan, en francais]. You won't find 'Mellent' on a map, unless
there is some older map of Normandy drawn up by someone (say 1800 or
before) with a fanciful or flawed idea of medieval names.

Cheers,

John

Ginny Wagner

RE: "Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 10 aug 2005 20:49:01

<Were these separate estates/areas in Normandy circa 1100>

Hi Marilyn,

From what I can tell from Round's index, Mellent and Meulan weren't
separate although there are some similar names that are.

In the General Index of Round's French Calendar of Documents,
918-1206:


Mellent, Mellote. See Meulan;
Mellend, Robert of. See Meulan;
Mellento, Waleran de, 4. See also Mellote;
Mellento, Roger de, 471, 476, See also Meulan;
Melling, Mellingues [co. Lancaster], church of, 239;
Mellote, Waleran de, archdeacon, 72. See also Mellento;
Melton, Church of, 512;
Melun, Robert de, bishop of Hereford, charter of 226;
Meulan, Medlent, Mellentum [Seine et Oise], 46, 457;
......,house of weavers at, 115;
......,charter dated at, 457;
Meulan, Mellentum, Medlent, Mellend, land of count of, 528;
....

lots of entries -- I'll be glad to send scan and send privately since
the list doesn't like attachments if you like ...

....

See also Bellomonte, Mellento.




Hope this helps. ;-) Ginny

Symonds

Re: "Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av Symonds » 10 aug 2005 21:06:01

Ginny, thank you very much for these. I have thought they must have been
very close together, and I was able to locate Meulan on an old map. It
appears that the two estates may have been joined before 1103 because
one source says that when Robert de Beaumont's (Bellomonte's?) mother
died he inherited from her the Mellent and Meulan estates in Normandy,
also the title of Viscount Ivry and Lord of Norton. And where "Norton"
came from, I cannot say. I am not familiar with Round's French Calendar
of Documents. Can you tell me more about it?

Marilyn

Ginny Wagner wrote:
Were these separate estates/areas in Normandy circa 1100

Hi Marilyn,

From what I can tell from Round's index, Mellent and Meulan weren't
separate although there are some similar names that are.

In the General Index of Round's French Calendar of Documents,
918-1206:


Mellent, Mellote. See Meulan;
Mellend, Robert of. See Meulan;
Mellento, Waleran de, 4. See also Mellote;
Mellento, Roger de, 471, 476, See also Meulan;
Melling, Mellingues [co. Lancaster], church of, 239;
Mellote, Waleran de, archdeacon, 72. See also Mellento;
Melton, Church of, 512;
Melun, Robert de, bishop of Hereford, charter of 226;
Meulan, Medlent, Mellentum [Seine et Oise], 46, 457;
.....,house of weavers at, 115;
.....,charter dated at, 457;
Meulan, Mellentum, Medlent, Mellend, land of count of, 528;
...

lots of entries -- I'll be glad to send scan and send privately since
the list doesn't like attachments if you like ...

...

See also Bellomonte, Mellento.




Hope this helps. ;-) Ginny



Symonds

Re: "Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av Symonds » 10 aug 2005 22:43:02

Ah! very helpful, John. Thank you very much.

Marilyn

John P. Ravilious wrote:
Dear Marilyn (and Ginny),

The county of Meulan was centered on the ville or town of
Meulan, approx. 35 km. WNW of 'downtown' Paris (ca. the Louvre and
Notre-Dame) on the Seine.

'Mellent' is an anglicization based on the Latin form, 'de
Mellento' - as in comes de Mellento [English: count of Meulan; or comte
de Meulan, en francais]. You won't find 'Mellent' on a map, unless
there is some older map of Normandy drawn up by someone (say 1800 or
before) with a fanciful or flawed idea of medieval names.

Cheers,

John


Ginny Wagner

RE: "Mellent" and/or "Meulan"

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 10 aug 2005 23:45:02

<Can you tell me more about it?>

Hi Marilyn, you are welcome for the index listing. The book is ca.
1899 with a 56 page preface that is a course in genealogy as well as a
bibliography with admonitions about which sources to trust. It is by
J. Horace Round, M.A. As well, the over 100 page index is eye-opening
as to relationships as you saw with the Meulan/Mellon. It is
basically a compilation of charters located in Norman abbeys and
priories that were transcribed in the early 1800s. Some of the
charters were found molding in an old barn in Normandy, hidden away
from the revolutionaries who destroyed so much of the history of
France.

The book is almost 700 pages, leather bound, and consists of charters
between the years 918 and 1206; such dates chosen because those were
the years that Normandy was connected to England.

He starts off "The documents dealt with in this calendar were, for the
most part, transcribed for the old Record Commission more than sixty
years ago. On the dissolution of that Commission its labours
terminated abruptly and no steps were taken to utilise these
transcripts, of which a number had then been executed at no
inconsiderable cost. A list of the volumes into which they had been
bound, according to the places from which they had been obtained, was
printed in 1885 as an Appendix to the Syllabus, in English, of Rymer's
"Foedera"; but no attempt has hitherto been made to render their
contents available to the public. ... the bulk of these early
documents is found among the transcripts from Normandy, the year 1206
was selected as one which would amply cover the loss of that province,
terminating the period of a century and a half during which it was
connected with England.

"With regard to the text, it should be clearly understood that the
documents which are here calendared are transcripts. A systematic
collation, in foreign archives, of the text would have been equivalent
to a new undertaking ... Their text has been carefully revised by the
editor [Round], who received instructions that in those cases where
the text appeared to him suspicious, it should, where possible, be
verified abroad. He has, for his own satisfaction, gone considerably
further, and collated, as will be seen by the notes, a large number of
the transcripts with the sources whence they were derived.

...........

"Advantage was taken of the opportunity presented by this work of
revision to traverse again the ground from which the transcripts were
derived, in order to ascertain whether any documents had been omitted.
The result was a large addition to the number previously transcribed,
as will be made evident by those marginal references which contain no
mention of a transcript. For instance, of the forty-five charters
relating to the abbey of Bec and its priories (Nos. 357-401),
twenty-nine have been added by the editor, including the original
grant of Little Ogbourne manor, which corrects the received history
(No. 374). From the carulary, at Evreux, of St. Taurin's abbey, only
three charters were extraced: the editor has added three others, one
of which corrects the narrative of the Lacys' foundation in Ireland of
Fore abbey,[1] while another contains welcome evidence on the Norman
settlement of Gower.

..........

None of the charters have been already [as of 1899] printed in
Monasticon Anglicanum.

An earlier email of mine lists the TOC. Another bit from the preface:

"It has been said by Sir H. Barkly that 'Despite all researches,
Ernulph de Hesding still remains one of the most mysterious personages
in Domesday.'[3] A tenant-in-chief in ten counties, and a tenant,
under bishop Odo, in Kent, it has never been proved where he came
from, or how his manors descended. Mr. Eyton established the fact
that some of them passed to the Fitz Alans, through the marriage of
his daughter Avelina with Alan Fitz Flaald; and he assigned him two
other daughters, one of whom, Matilda, married Patrick de Cadurcis,
who undoubtedly held in her right (No. 1033) a large proportion of
Ernulf's fief.[4] Later research recognises only Avelina and Matilda,
while the editor himself has never found any real proof that Matilda
was a daughter of Ernulf. Seeking further light on the problem, he
discovered, in a special examination fo the cartulary of St. George,
Hesdin, a charter of Ernulf hitherto unknown (No. 1326) which not only
locates him in France, but mentions his daughter Ava, who was clearly
the above "Avelina," wife of Alan Fitz Flaald."

Names of wives of Richard de Meri and Savaric Fitz Cana (Nos. 669,
1213), proves that the two Engelgers (son-in-law and maternal grandson
of Richard) were, in reality, but one, who was, on the contrary, his
son [1] (Nos. 662, 1215).

The pedigree of Jocelin bishop of Salisbury is dealt with in the
preface as well as the Lincolnshire fief of Robert de Haie via his
wife Muriel by inheritance with the possibility that Muriel was a
sister of Picot rather than the fief being a grant.

A long discussion of Robert, son of Tetbald, the sheriff.

Another re Roger de Beaumont's gift of five hides at Arlscott,
Warwickshire showing that possibly the whole of his estate had been
preceded by his renowned father Roger de Beaumont. Roger must have
surrendered his estate here to this son the count of Meulan before
1080.

I found a charter signed by 'monk' Lanfranc. And the other name for
L'Essay is given herein as St. Oportuna. The foundations are
categorized by upper or lower Normandy, etc. and for instance:

page 207

Abbey of St. Andre-en-Gouffern, for Cistercian monks, in the Diocese
of Sees, [Original Documents in Archives of the Calvados and of La
Manche; Cartulary]

Then he begins the transcription of the charters with dates and which
cartulary, folio, etc. they are found. Round also, when able,
describes the seals on the charters colors and leather or silk and if
a drawing. And, he spends a page discussing the translation of a bit
of latin as to how it fixes the date of a charter. He verifies the
dates as to when personages were known to have been in certain places:

"The famous Nigel, bishop of Ely, is supposed not to have left England
between his promotion to that see (1133) and the death of Henry I.
(1135). Yet two documents here (Nos. 290, 590) reveal him in Normandy
at the court of that king. His great successor, Longchamp, is
believed to have parted from Richard at Dover in 1189, being left by
him in England. Yet we here find him (No. 1346) attesting a charter
of that king in the neighbourhood of St. Omer, so that he must have
accompnaied his sovereign across the channel."

And much more of this kind of enlightenment as to other personages.
Even if the results he found have been long known by now in
genealogical circles (I am too ignorant of genealogy to even know what
is known now and what is not), it is interesting to read about how he
deduced historical and genealogical knowledge from these charters.

Those who have problems with the work of others on the list could do
with reading this cause Round manages to disagree with colleagues yet
does it in a very respectful manner.

Anyhoo, if you can get the book from your ILL (which is where I got my
copy) then you ought to (if you can stand dust and mites from old
tomes) cause it is a wonderful book on many levels.

;-) Ginny

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