Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

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Kelsey Williams

Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 08 aug 2005 03:25:37

Hello,

John Erskine, 5th of Dun (1509-1589/90) married as his second wife on
24 January 1538/39, Barbara de Bierle, described as "dau. of the Lord
of Gamnecourt, in Picardy, a lady of the household of Queen Mary of
Lorraine" who died 15 November 1572 [1]. They had several children
including John Erskine, 1st of Kirkbuddo (d. 1615) and Margaret Erskine
(d. 1599), mother of the Royalist Patrick Maule, 1st Earl of Panmure
[2].

Does anyone know of a good source for the genealogy of the Bierles,
Seigneurs de Gamnecourt? Does such a family even exist?

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

[1] _Burke's Landed Gentry_ (1939 Edition), 708.
[2] ibid., 1230; _The Complete Peerage_, X:298-299.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 08 aug 2005 05:16:02

Dear Kelsey,

I surely hope this family exists as they are also ancestors of Prince
Charles.
Gerald Paget gives the same as you have, except for the spelling of the
surname

O 24599 NN de Bearle, Sire de Camnecourt
father of
N 12300 Barbara de Bearle died 15 November 1572
married 24 January 1539 Sir John Erskine, 5th of Dun

I haven't seen any Gateway Ancestors as descendant but the 14th Earl of
Strathmore and Kinghorne is (via him we find Prince Charles) Lord Alfred
'Bosie' Douglas, Prince Albert of Monaco and Howard Brush Dean III amongst
many other interesting descendants.

If you find anything, I would be interested and so would be Ian Fettes.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberr, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun


Hello,

John Erskine, 5th of Dun (1509-1589/90) married as his second wife on
24 January 1538/39, Barbara de Bierle, described as "dau. of the Lord
of Gamnecourt, in Picardy, a lady of the household of Queen Mary of
Lorraine" who died 15 November 1572 [1]. They had several children
including John Erskine, 1st of Kirkbuddo (d. 1615) and Margaret Erskine
(d. 1599), mother of the Royalist Patrick Maule, 1st Earl of Panmure
[2].

Does anyone know of a good source for the genealogy of the Bierles,
Seigneurs de Gamnecourt? Does such a family even exist?

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

[1] _Burke's Landed Gentry_ (1939 Edition), 708.
[2] ibid., 1230; _The Complete Peerage_, X:298-299.


Gjest

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2005 11:01:37

Leo and Kelsey,

FWIW, the new DNB gives yet a third spelling of her name, ie 'Beirle'.
I remember looking at a book about the Erskines of Dun, in which
Barbara's affiliation to a 'sieur de Camnecourt' is given more as
speculation than as fact. So perhaps it was originally just a
conjecture, which became 'fact' by repetition; but presumably there was
such a family in the first place, to be the cause of it. I've found no
trace so far, though.

Matthew (a less interesting descendant!)

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Kelsey,

I surely hope this family exists as they are also ancestors of Prince
Charles.
Gerald Paget gives the same as you have, except for the spelling of the
surname

O 24599 NN de Bearle, Sire de Camnecourt
father of
N 12300 Barbara de Bearle died 15 November 1572
married 24 January 1539 Sir John Erskine, 5th of Dun

I haven't seen any Gateway Ancestors as descendant but the 14th Earl of
Strathmore and Kinghorne is (via him we find Prince Charles) Lord Alfred
'Bosie' Douglas, Prince Albert of Monaco and Howard Brush Dean III amongst
many other interesting descendants.

If you find anything, I would be interested and so would be Ian Fettes.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberr, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelsey Williams" <zetetes_sofias@yahoo.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun


Hello,

John Erskine, 5th of Dun (1509-1589/90) married as his second wife on
24 January 1538/39, Barbara de Bierle, described as "dau. of the Lord
of Gamnecourt, in Picardy, a lady of the household of Queen Mary of
Lorraine" who died 15 November 1572 [1]. They had several children
including John Erskine, 1st of Kirkbuddo (d. 1615) and Margaret Erskine
(d. 1599), mother of the Royalist Patrick Maule, 1st Earl of Panmure
[2].

Does anyone know of a good source for the genealogy of the Bierles,
Seigneurs de Gamnecourt? Does such a family even exist?

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

[1] _Burke's Landed Gentry_ (1939 Edition), 708.
[2] ibid., 1230; _The Complete Peerage_, X:298-299.


Kelsey Williams

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 08 aug 2005 14:49:24

Would the book have been Violet Jacob's _Lairds of Dun_ (London, 1931)?
I haven't located a copy yet but assumed it probably would have some
mention of Barbara. The Erskines' family muniments have also been
published as "Papers from the Charter Chest at Dun, 1451-1703" in
_Miscellany of the Spalding Club_, Vol. 4 (Aberdeen, 1849) but I
haven't examined them either.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Gjest

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 aug 2005 17:19:04

Kelsey Williams wrote:
Would the book have been Violet Jacob's _Lairds of Dun_ (London, 1931)?
I haven't located a copy yet but assumed it probably would have some
mention of Barbara. The Erskines' family muniments have also been
published as "Papers from the Charter Chest at Dun, 1451-1703" in
_Miscellany of the Spalding Club_, Vol. 4 (Aberdeen, 1849) but I
haven't examined them either.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Yes, that sounds like the book; so don't expect much more on Barbara
from it, although it may be worth a look in any case. I haven't seen
the Spalding Club volume, but presumably it was used as a source by
Violet Jacobs. It looks like French sources might be the best hope now-
but there's nothing in Anselme I think (I must have looked, and Paget
certainly used that source elsewhere).

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 aug 2005 14:51:06

A quick google showed that this topic was discussed in the magazine
'Notes and Queries' in 1910-11; the resulting notes are even available
online, at a price, at nq.oxfordjournals.org . It seems too expensive a
gamble, considering that it's unlikely any definite information came
from it, but the paper versions may be worth a look when accessible.
The refs are: 'Gamnecourt in Picardy: Barbara de Bierle' in N&Q series
11, vol II (1910) [no.48] p429 and [no.52] p512; vol III (1911) [no.56]
pp50-51, [no.59] p112 and [no.61] pp152-3.

Interestingly, no other references turned up for Gamnecourt or
Camnecourt, so this name may not be correct for the place intended.

John Higgins

Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 aug 2005 03:19:01

Violet Jacob's book on the Erskines does briefly mention Barbara de Bearle
[sic], but does not say much except that, according to Macfaralane's
Genealogical Collections, she was a daughter of the Sieur de Camnecourt in
Picardy and a lady-in-waiting to Marie of Lorraine [usually called Marie de
Guise], Queen to James V. As well as Macfarlane, Jacob cites the Dun Papers
[presumably the Spalding Club publication].

Some attempts were made to present a clarified pedigree of the Erskines of
Dun in vols. 4 and 6 of The Scottish Antiquary, but they don't really
address the ancestry of this Barbara - unfortunately....

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Barbara de Bierle, Lady Dun


Kelsey Williams wrote:
Would the book have been Violet Jacob's _Lairds of Dun_ (London, 1931)?
I haven't located a copy yet but assumed it probably would have some
mention of Barbara. The Erskines' family muniments have also been
published as "Papers from the Charter Chest at Dun, 1451-1703" in
_Miscellany of the Spalding Club_, Vol. 4 (Aberdeen, 1849) but I
haven't examined them either.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Yes, that sounds like the book; so don't expect much more on Barbara
from it, although it may be worth a look in any case. I haven't seen
the Spalding Club volume, but presumably it was used as a source by
Violet Jacobs. It looks like French sources might be the best hope now-
but there's nothing in Anselme I think (I must have looked, and Paget
certainly used that source elsewhere).

Matthew

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