Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of Ferre

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Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of Ferre

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 05:17:01

In Leo's great website I was able to confirm that Anne Devereux, daughter of
John Devereux, 2nd Lord Ferrers [of Chartley] and his wife Cecily Bourchier
[who d between 9 Feb and Jun 1493] was married twice.

That is Anne Devereux married firstly Henry Clifford and secondly David Owen
This David Owen d 1542 per genealogics, but is there erroneously given as son
of Sir Owen Tudor who was b abt 1400.

Anne Devereux has an estimated birthyear of 1490 on genealogics.

Now I have found a document which touches on these persons.
This document gives us children to David Owen, although only one is
explicitly stated to be off Anne.
But it also gives us a grandson to David, increasing the chances that there
are living descendents from this family.
Will Johnson

-----------------------------------

The Cowdray Archives

Catalogue Ref. COWDRAY
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague

ESTATE AND FAMILY
DOCUMENTS HITHERTO KNOWN AS THE MONTAGUE PAPERS

FILE - Draft will of Sir Davy [David] Owen, kt. - ref. COWDRAY/12 -
date: 20 Feb 1529/30
[from Scope and Content] The feoffees of his manor of Wotton (co.
Surr.), with the advowson and free chapel, and of all his lands in Rusper and
Horsham, to stand seised thereof after his death to the use of s. Harry Owen,
lawfully begotten on the body of Anne, sis. of Walter Deverrers, [3rd] Lord
Ferrers of Chartley and his heirs male, and for lack of such issue these
properties to remain to s. John Owen and his heirs male, and for default of such issue
to his (the testator's) second s. Jasper Owen and his heirs male, so that he
will be bound to the executors never to sell any lands that he now has in
possession or which he shall have through the testator's death, and for default of
such issue to remain to David Owen, s. of his (the testator's) s. Sir Henry
Owen and his heirs male, and for default of such issue to remain to the heirs of
his (the testator's) body, and for default of such issue to remain to his
right heirs in fee for ever.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 05 aug 2005 05:33:02

So glad you found this. I went back to the source and found that this David
Owen was the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor (not Sir Owen Tudor). Does this
mean Owen Tudor the son of Sir Owen and Catherine de France? This would give
him royal ancestors of course.

This David Owen was married three times, (not sure of the order of 1 and 2)
Mary Bohun, Anne Blount and (3) Anne Devereux.

David Owen and Anne Devereux (with royal blood) are shown to have had three
children:
Henry Owen, did not marry
John Owen who apparently did marry and had children
Elizabeth Owen who married a cousin Thomas Burgh, this marriage was
childless but she had "descendants" outside her marriage

This Thomas Burgh died before 28 February 1550 and was a son of Thomas, 3rd
Lord Bugh and (1st wife) Anne Tyrwhitt. An older brother of this Thomas,
Edward, was one of the husbands of Queen Catherine Parr.

Hope this is of interest?
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of
Ferrers/Bouchier]


In Leo's great website I was able to confirm that Anne Devereux, daughter
of
John Devereux, 2nd Lord Ferrers [of Chartley] and his wife Cecily
Bourchier
[who d between 9 Feb and Jun 1493] was married twice.

That is Anne Devereux married firstly Henry Clifford and secondly David
Owen
This David Owen d 1542 per genealogics, but is there erroneously given as
son
of Sir Owen Tudor who was b abt 1400.

Anne Devereux has an estimated birthyear of 1490 on genealogics.

Now I have found a document which touches on these persons.
This document gives us children to David Owen, although only one is
explicitly stated to be off Anne.
But it also gives us a grandson to David, increasing the chances that
there
are living descendents from this family.
Will Johnson

-----------------------------------

The Cowdray Archives

Catalogue Ref. COWDRAY
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague

ESTATE AND FAMILY
DOCUMENTS HITHERTO KNOWN AS THE MONTAGUE PAPERS

FILE - Draft will of Sir Davy [David] Owen, kt. - ref. COWDRAY/12 -
date: 20 Feb 1529/30
[from Scope and Content] The feoffees of his manor of Wotton (co.
Surr.), with the advowson and free chapel, and of all his lands in Rusper
and
Horsham, to stand seised thereof after his death to the use of s. Harry
Owen,
lawfully begotten on the body of Anne, sis. of Walter Deverrers, [3rd]
Lord
Ferrers of Chartley and his heirs male, and for lack of such issue these
properties to remain to s. John Owen and his heirs male, and for default
of such issue
to his (the testator's) second s. Jasper Owen and his heirs male, so that
he
will be bound to the executors never to sell any lands that he now has in
possession or which he shall have through the testator's death, and for
default of
such issue to remain to David Owen, s. of his (the testator's) s. Sir
Henry
Owen and his heirs male, and for default of such issue to remain to the
heirs of
his (the testator's) body, and for default of such issue to remain to his
right heirs in fee for ever.


Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 07:57:02

In a message dated 8/4/2005 8:32:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:


So glad you found this. I went back to the source and found that this David

Owen was the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor (not Sir Owen Tudor). Does this
mean Owen Tudor the son of Sir Owen and Catherine de France? This would give

him royal ancestors of course.

This David Owen was married three times, (not sure of the order of 1 and 2)
Mary Bohun, Anne Blount and (3) Anne Devereux.


This might be a conflict.
DNB says that Owen Tudor (the famous one who "seduced" the Queen mother) had
an illegitimate son, or rather he is "said" to have one who was knighted by
Henry VII "...who gave him in marriage Mary, daughter and heiress of John Bohun
of Midhurst, Sussex."

However they say no more on that. So as to whether this David (or Dafydd as
they name him) is the same as the David Owen who's will I found ... that's the
issue. I don't know the answer.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 11:49:01

In a message dated 05/08/2005 04:32:51 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Leo wrote

So glad you found this. I went back to the source and found that this David
Owen was the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor (not Sir Owen Tudor). Does this
mean Owen Tudor the son of Sir Owen and Catherine de France? This would give
him royal ancestors of course.

<<<<

David Owen is generally regarded as the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor
(-1461), i.e. the father not the son Owen (whom I believe became a monk). David
must have been born near the end of said Owen Tudor's (the father) life as
David lived to 1535, so he was a contemporary his father's grandson Henry VII.




This David Owen was married three times, (not sure of the order of 1 and 2)
Mary Bohun, Anne Blount and (3) Anne Devereux.

David Owen and Anne Devereux (with royal blood) are shown to have had three
children:
Henry Owen, did not marry
John Owen who apparently did marry and had children
Elizabeth Owen who married a cousin Thomas Burgh, this marriage was
childless but she had "descendants" outside her marriage

<<<<<

I have, in my notes;
I'm not sure if he was married two or three times. Some refs (Burke's I
guess) show his 2nd marriage to Anne d of William Blount, but I believe that
this is thought to have been an error for Anne Devereux (sister of Walter, Bn
Ferrers of Chartly), rather than an additional marriage. I think the son Henry
married Dorothy dau of Thomas West Ld de la Warr and left issue (probably
sourced from Burke's), I have the second son as Jasper and the daughter as Anne,
but don't know if either of these married.

David Owen gained the Cowdray estate (near Midhurst, W Sussex) by his
marriage to Mary Bohun, but Mrs Charles Round's book on Cowdray states that David's
spendthrift son (I forget which one, presumably Henry) fraudulently sold
Cowdray to Wm FitzWilliam (who certainly owned it and left it to his half
brother Sir Anthony Browne of the Viscount Montague family). Round stated that
David Owen honoured this sale, but was allowed to remain at Cowdray for the
remainder of his life. Mrs Round also states that, at the time of her writing,
David Owen's huge will (the original as opposed to the probate copy) is till
extant.

BTW - The Wotton estate mentioned in this thread, near Dorking, became the
property of the diarist John Evelyn (he inherited late in life from his
brother). There is still an house there, but it cannot be the original. In my
youth, it was a conference centre for the fire service (I knew the bartender,
and I had some rather over indulgent sessions there), but now I think it is a
hotel/health centre)

regards,
Adrian

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 18:35:02

In a message dated 8/5/2005 2:47:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:


David Owen is generally regarded as the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor
(-1461), i.e. the father not the son Owen (whom I believe became a monk).
David
must have been born near the end of said Owen Tudor's (the father) life as
David lived to 1535, so he was a contemporary his father's grandson Henry
VII.

While it is not impossible, I find it stretching credulity that a man's son
dies 135 years after that man is born. I'd be interested in seeing what
primary evidence there is to support this David being the son of that Owen. I
already posted that DNB does not say that he had more than the one wife, Mary of
Bohun. I could not find much in the secondary works, but I'll take a look today
if I can at A2A to see if there is anything there that can help. Also do I
need to say that these marriages would appear at first-glance to be steps down
for the women?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 20:10:01

Testamenta Vestusta, Vol II p 700 has extracts of David Owen's will plus
some notes on his family. I'm fairly certain this topic has been discussed
before here.

Adrian


In a message dated 8/5/2005 2:47:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:


David Owen is generally regarded as the illegitimate son of Owen Tudor
(-1461), i.e. the father not the son Owen (whom I believe became a monk).

David
must have been born near the end of said Owen Tudor's (the father) life
as
David lived to 1535, so he was a contemporary his father's grandson Henry
VII.


Will Johnson reply



While it is not impossible, I find it stretching credulity that a man's son
dies 135 years after that man is born. I'd be interested in seeing what
primary evidence there is to support this David being the son of that Owen.
I
already posted that DNB does not say that he had more than the one wife,
Mary of
Bohun. I could not find much in the secondary works, but I'll take a look
today
if I can at A2A to see if there is anything there that can help. Also do I
need to say that these marriages would appear at first-glance to be steps
down
for the women?


<<<<<

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 21:35:02

In a message dated 8/5/05 11:09:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< Testamenta Vestusta, Vol II p 700 has extracts of David Owen's will plus
some notes on his family. I'm fairly certain this topic has been discussed
before here.

Adrian >>

Although the point of contention is not whether David had children and who
they were and who he gave bequests to. But however, whether David was the son
of the Owen who was executed in 1461. His will, which I posted, does not state
that.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 21:37:01

Further on this topic, I had mentioned that the will does not make specific
which children are off Anne Devereux. I have now located a document which
makes specific that at least the son Henry is NOT off Anne (but interestingly, his
son "Harry" is.)

I had always thought that Harry was synonymous with Henry.
This document, names Owen's previous wife Mary as mother of Henry and brings
in the Cowdray Estate into the mix. It also mentions that Henry is Knight at
this time. (1528)
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------
Montague Family
Catalogue Ref. SAS-BA
Creator(s): Montague family, Viscounts Montague

DEEDS
Cowdray Estate
FILE - Counterpart of Deed - ref. SAS-BA/2 - date: 24 Jan 1528
[from Scope and Content] Between Sir WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM, knt., Treasurer
of the King's Household, of the one part, and Sir HENRY OWEN, knt., son and
heir of Dame Mary Owen decd. late wife of Sir David Owen, knt., father of the
said Sir Henry, of the other part
[from Scope and Content] The said Sir Henry requiring to have quicker
payment of the sum of £1433. 6. 8., residue of the said £2193. 6. 8. appointed to
be paid after the death of the said Sir David Owen And that the said Sir
William should have and enjoy the said manor and premises without any condition of
payment of the said sum of £760, the said Sir William Fitzwilliam covenanted
by the present deed to pay to Sir Henry Owen the said sum of £1433. 6. 8. as
therein mentioned
[from Scope and Content] Signature, Sr Henry Owen, seal gone

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 21:45:02

A few moments ago I had shown how Henry Owen, Knt in 1528 was the child of
David Owen and an unknown Mary (who was dead by 1528).

I now present the proof that this Mary was a BOHUN, daughter and heir of John
Bohun of the Cowdray Estate.

Will Johnson
---------------------------------------------------------
Montague Family
Catalogue Ref. SAS-BA
Creator(s): Montague family, Viscounts Montague

DEEDS
Cowdray Estate

FILE - Recovery - ref. SAS-BA/7 - date: 1529
[from Scope and Content] The defendant says that before the day of the
obtaining (impetracio) of the said writ one Mary Bohun, daughter and heir of John
Bohown, was seised of the manor, tenements and rent aforesaid in her demesne as
of fee and so seised before the day of the issue of that writ took to husband
the said David, by which the said David and Mary were seised thereof And they
had issue between them in one Henry Owen, knt. And afterwards and before the
issue of the writ the said Mary died and the said David survived her and had
entry into the said manor, tenements and rent and was seised therof in his
demesne as of a free tenement as tenant thereof by the law of England, reversion
thereof after his decease to the said Henry Owen and his heirs Without which
Henry the said David says that he himself cannot convey (deducere) the said manor
and premises
[from Scope and Content] And he prays the aid of the said Henry Owen And it
is granted to him Which Henry being present in court joins in aid of the said
David in the said plea They call to warrant Thomas Chapman as common vouchee,
who makes default &c

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics David Owen and Anne Devereux [of F

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 22:40:02

In a message dated 05/08/2005 20:34:07 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:


<< Testamenta Vestusta, Vol II p 700 has extracts of David Owen's will plus

~~~
some notes on his family. I'm fairly certain this topic has been discussed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~
before here.
~~~~~~~~


In a message dated 8/5/05 11:09:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< Testamenta Vestusta, Vol II p 700 has extracts of David Owen's will plus
some notes on his family. I'm fairly certain this topic has been discussed

before here.

Adrian >>

Although the point of contention is not whether David had children and who
they were and who he gave bequests to. But however, whether David was the
son
of the Owen who was executed in 1461. His will, which I posted, does not
state
that.
Will Johnson

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