Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

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Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 05:16:04

Thursday, 4 August, 2005


Dear Will,

In your last message, you wrote in response to my last post:

-----------------------

<< Therefore his [Sir Patrick's] father could not have been
the Alexander de Dunbar of the Turnberry Band
(1286), but rather another Alexander de Dunbar, son of Earl
Patrick and Marjory Comyn. >>

I don't understand the logic of this last statement.
Why exactly could Alexander not be of the Turnberry Band (1286) ?

---------------------


Following is a partial pedigree of the Earls of Dunbar, from
Patrick [6th Earl in the CP account] to George, Earl of Dunbar,
reflecting the descent as I see it (concurring with CP on this
point). Alexander, the 6th Earl's son, is shown in the SP
account as the ancestor of Earl George: with regard to the
chronological problem with this identification which I've noted,
Andrew MacEwen concurs that he is not Earl George's ancestor.
The account in SP III:259-260 Andrew notes is in error, as this
Alexander de Dunbar is recorded up to ca. 1290, but thereafter
disappears from the record as far as can be ascertained after
that time. The reference that this Alexander de Dunbar "was
alive on 26 June 1331" [SP III:259] is due to a conflation
between this Alexander, and the Sir Alexander, grandfather of
Earl George, as shown below.

Hope this is of use.

Cheers,

John *


1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 24 Aug 1289, Whittinghame, March [East Lothian][1]
Birth: bef 13 Dec 1213[2],[1]
Occ: Earl of March 1248-1289
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (ca1185->1248)
Mother: Euphemia de Brus (-ca1267)

Earl of March [Scotland]

of Beanley, Northumberland[3]

his father d. before 13 Dec 1248:
' #1750. Dec. 13, 1248.
The king has taken the homage of Patric earl of Dunbar for all the
lands and tenements that Patric his father held of the king in
capite, and to which he succeeds in heritage; and the Sheriff of
Northumberland is commanded to give him seizin, and to cause all
the earl's men in the bailliary to be intentive and answerable to
him as their lord. Windsor. [Patent Rolls, 33
Henry III, m.9].'[4]

' Charter of Patrick III Earl of Dunbar, son of Patrick, son of
Patrick Earl of Dunbar granting to the Prior and monks of
Coldingham half of Bilie, viz. the half lying between the two
Restons and Aldengraw, and Chirnside and Blackburn, as in the
charter of Earl Patrick his grandfather [Misc.Ch. 743].
Witnesses: Lord David de Graham, sheriff of Berwick, Lord Aymer,
sheriff of Roxburgh, Lord Nicholas de Sules, Lord William de
Mordington, Lord Robert de Montgomery, Lord Patrick Edger, Earl's
steward, Lord Robert the Earl's uncle, Lord Robert de
Powelworthe, Lord Adam de Morham, Lord William de Scremerston,
Adam de Prendergest, Thomas de Nesbit, and others '
[Durham University Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc.
Charter 772[5]. Printed: Raine ND App. CXXXIX ]

' Charter of Patrick III, Earl of Dunbar, son of Patrick son of
Patrick Earl, granting to Henry, Prior and the monks of
Coldingham half of Bilie viz. the half between the two Restons
and Aldengraw, and Chirnside and Blackburn as in the agreement
between Earl Patrick his grandfather and Thomas, Prior [Misc.Ch.
744].
Witnesses: Lord Patrick Edger, Earl's steward, Lord Robert,
Earl's uncle, Lord David de Graham, sheriff of Berwick, Lord
Simon Bayard, Lord Adam de Edington, Lord Robert de Montgomery,
Lord William de Scremerston, Lord John Chaplain? Earl's proctor,
Thomas de Nesbit, Robert son of the steward of Coldingham, Adam
de Prendergest, & many others ' [Durham University Library
Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 773[5]. Printed:
Raine ND App. CXL ]

'Patricius Comes de Dunbar', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[2]

commander of a division of the Scots army at the Battle of Largs,
1263
attended the ratification of the treaty with Norway, 6 July 1266

' Patrick Earl of Dunbarr ', witness to a royal confirmation by
Alexander II, King of Scots of a grant by 'Reginald Prath knight
made to William de Swyneburn for his homage and service of the
lands of Haluchton', dated at Jeddewrth, 1st May in the 18th year
of his reign [1 May 1267] -A2A, Northumberland Record Office:
Swinburne (Capheaton) estate records [ZSW/1 - ZSW/59],
ZSW/1/22[6]

' Charter of Patrick III Earl of Dunbar, quitclaiming to the
Prior and Convent of Coldingham a feast which used to be given
him yearly in the house of Coldingham.
Witnesses: Lord Thomas Ranulphi, sheriff of Berwick, Lord Simon
Fraser, Lord Hugh de Peresby, sheriff of Roxburgh, Lord Alan de
Ormeston, William de Boddeby, John his son, Philip de Haliburton,
John de Wyndscales, John the clerk, and others.
At Duns. 4 Kal. June [29 May] 1279. ' [Durham University
Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 773[5]]

witness to the marriage contract between Princess Margaret and
King Eric of Norway at Roxburgh, 25 Jul 1281
attended Parliament at Scone, Feb 1284 (when Princess Margaret of
Norway was declared heir to the Scots throne) [SP III:258[1] ]

' Patricius comes de Dunbar', together with his sons entered into
a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others
at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de
Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[7] ]

cf. CP IV:506[2]
SP III:258[1]

Spouse: Cecilia 'filia Johannis'
Father: John fitz Robert of Warkworth, Northumberland(-1240)
Mother: Ada de Baliol (-1251)

Children: Patrick (<1242-1308)
John
Alexander


1.1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 10 Oct 1308[1],[8]
Birth: bef 11 Nov 1242[2]
Occ: Earl of March 1289-1308

Earl of March

of Beanley, Northumberland[3]

'Patricius', together with his father and brothers, entered into
a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others
at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de
Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[7] ]

' Dunbar comes de Marchia, Patricius de (Patrik de Dunbar, comte
de la Marche). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[9] ]

competitor for the Scottish crown, 1291/92[1]: following which,
'Patrick, earl of March', one of the auditors for the claim of
Bruce at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[10] ]

' Le Conte Patrike ', knight, serving with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July
1298 : his arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of
cinquefoils of the field ' (Falkirk Roll H 23[11])

cf. SP III:258[1]
CP IV:506[2]

Spouse: Marjory Comyn
Father: Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (-<1290)
Mother: Elizabeth de Quincy

Children: Patrick, Earl of Dunbar [or March]
Sir Alexander


1.1.1 Sir Alexander of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: [allegedly] aft 26 June 1331

' Lord Alexander, son of the Earl of Dunbar ', father of Patrick
de Dunbar [charter of his son Patrick, given at Lower Ayton, 26
June or 4 September 1331 [Durham University Library Archives &
Special Collections: Misc. Charter 1038[5] ]

conflated in the Scots Peerage account [SP III:259-260] with
Alexander de Dunbar, his uncle, who was party to the Turnberry
Band in 1286 [7], [13]

cf. SP III:259-260
CP IV:508

Children: Sir Patrick (-1357)


1.1.1.1 Sir Patrick Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 1357[1]

charter granted 1331:
' Charter of Patrick de Dunbar, son of Lord Alexander, son of the
Earl of Dunbar, granting and quitclaiming in the Prior's court at
Ayton, on Wednesday after the Feast of St John the Baptist, to
Adam de Pontefract, Prior, and the Convent of Coldingham, ½
carrucate of land in Swinewood, which he bought from Thomas, son
of Ralph.
Witnesses: Lord Robert de Lawedre, Justiciar of Lothian,
Robert de Lawedre his son, sheriff, Henry de Prendergest, Hugh
Giffard, John de Rayngton, Henry de Swinton, Gilbert de Lumsden,
Roger de Lumsden, John de Paxton , and many others
Given at Lower Ayton Wednesday after the Feast of St John
Baptist [26 June or 4 September] 1331 ' [Durham University
Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 1038[5]
{Seal: G&B 2811. Attached by parchment strip through foot of
document. Printed: Raine ND App. CCCCXXXII}]

fought against the English at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356

identified by Fordun as the father of George, Earl of March (SP
III:270, sub _Dunbar_)[1]

cf. SP III:260
CP IV:508

Spouse: Isabella Randolph
Father: Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray (-1332)
Mother: Isabel le Steward

Children: George (ca1340-ca1420)
John Dunbar, Earl of Moray
Patrick (-<1421)
Agnes (-<1378), m. (2ndly) James Douglas of Dalkeith
David (-<1424)


1.1.1.1.1 George Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1340
Death: ca 1420[1]
Occ: Earl of March

Earl of March
deserted the Scottish cause and promised allegiance to Henry IV of
England; directed the English effort at the Battle of Homildon
(1402)[1]


cf. SP III:270, sub _Dunbar_[1]
Thompson and Hansen 13(2):253-4 #1116[12]

Spouse: Christiana Wardlaw

Children: George, Earl of March (-ca1455)
Sir David (-ca1452)


1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh:
David Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
1910 - [microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete
Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
3. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
4. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Magna Carta line of Eufemia (was
Eufemia wife of William Comyn of Kilbride)," 22 October 2004,
email ClaudiusI0@aol.com
cites Calendar of Documents pertaining to Scotland preserved
in her majestys public Record office, London edited by Joseph
Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2302. May 19, 1262.
5. "Durham Cathedral Muniments: Miscellaneous Charters," Durham
University Library Archives & Special Collections,

http://flambard.dur.ac.uk:6336/dynaweb/ ... View/10523
6. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
7. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com
http://www.genealogy.com, history and evidences concerning the Earls
and Earldom of Mentieth.
8. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta ancestry," 14 February 2005,
email royalancestry@msn.com.
9. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore
allegiance to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the
'Ragman Rolls').
10. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew,"
Paisley: Printed and sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally,
Edinburgh : Printed by James Watson, 1710), [also as cited by
Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan],
' containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
11. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of
those having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the
battle of Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298,, when the
forces of Edward I defeated a Scottish army under William
Wallace.
It is accepted that the roll was composed shortly afterwards.
The original blazon is in the Anglo-Norman dialect, from a
copy of the roll made by Robert Glover, c1585. The source of
this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I,
Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
12. Neil D Thompson and Charles M Hansen, ""A Medieval Heritage:
The Ancestry of Charles II, King of England"," The
Genealogist, a graphical summary of this ambitious project
provided by the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, URL:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/
13. Conversation with Andrew B. W. MacEwen, 4 August 2005
concerning the Dunbar pedigree and specific errors as given
in both Scots Peerage and Complete Peerage.

* John P. Ravilious

Diane Sheppard

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 05 aug 2005 14:23:47

Dear John,

Thank you for posting the additional documentation regarding the earls
of Dunbar and March, a summary of your conversation with Andrew
MacEwen, and your revised descent of the earls of Dunbar. The
additional documentation and your converation with Andrew have
convinced me that you are correct and that SP had conflated two
different Alexanders. I will change my database.

Two points that helped convince me of SP's error (and my error in
following them) were 1. the fact that the first Alexander was so well
noted in the records up to 1289-1290 and then disappears until 1331 (as
SP has conflated him). The 40+ year gap had puzzled me.. 2. the second
Alexander, as you have correctly proposed, does not appear in the
records until he is identified in his son's quitclaim deed to the monks
at Coldingham in 1331.

Thanks again for taking interest in this thread and for all your hard
work in tracking down these primary records.

Diane Sheppard

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