Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

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Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 20:39:02

Thursday, 4 August, 2005

Dear Nat,

Thanks for your reply, and the details provided. One must rely at
times on such calendars, which I think provide sufficient details in most
cases - when I get a chance I will also check at the LOC, if Bliss'
edition is held there.

From your notes, it is tempting to hypothesize the following:

1. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, m. Ermengarde in or
before 1303.

2. Their son, Patrick, born ca. 1304 or before, received
dispensation (dated 18 Aug 1320) to marry Agnes Randolph.
Identified as 'Patrick de Dunbar', he was the heir to the
Earl, but his father was then alive. The actual marriage
occurred between 18 Aug. 1320 and January 1323/4.

3. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, died between Aug. 1320 and
16 January 1323/4.

4. Patrick, Earl ["8.5"] of Dunbar, obtained the 'followup'
dispensation for his existing marriage to Agnes Randolph,
evidently because they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees
but the original dispensation claimed a 4th degree
relationship only. Patrick is called 'Earl' in this
dispensation, having succeeded his father as Earl of Dunbar
before Jan. 1323/4.

This is a conjecture, but certainly a possibility: the language
you cite from the dispensations (per the calendar) would certainly fit
this reconstruction. In addition, our 88+ year old Earl Patrick (in
1368) could be 'downgraded' to a more typical age of say 64 or more
at his death, as son of the 8th Earl and his wife Ermengarde.

Your further comments on this conjecture, and suggestions for
further documentation, would be much appreciated. When I get a chance,
perhaps there are more leads in Bain's work.

Cheers,

John

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 aug 2005 21:08:34

In article <8C7673ABCB94FA6-145C-14DC@FWM-D40.sysops.aol.com>,
therav3@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for your reply, and the details provided. One must rely at
times on such calendars, which I think provide sufficient details in most
cases - when I get a chance I will also check at the LOC, if Bliss'
edition is held there.

From your notes, it is tempting to hypothesize the following:

1. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, m. Ermengarde in or
before 1303.

2. Their son, Patrick, born ca. 1304 or before, received
dispensation (dated 18 Aug 1320) to marry Agnes Randolph.
Identified as 'Patrick de Dunbar', he was the heir to the
Earl, but his father was then alive. The actual marriage
occurred between 18 Aug. 1320 and January 1323/4.

3. Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar, died between Aug. 1320 and
16 January 1323/4.

4. Patrick, Earl ["8.5"] of Dunbar, obtained the 'followup'
dispensation for his existing marriage to Agnes Randolph,
evidently because they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees
but the original dispensation claimed a 4th degree
relationship only. Patrick is called 'Earl' in this
dispensation, having succeeded his father as Earl of Dunbar
before Jan. 1323/4.

This is a conjecture, but certainly a possibility: the language
you cite from the dispensations (per the calendar) would certainly fit
this reconstruction. In addition, our 88+ year old Earl Patrick (in
1368) could be 'downgraded' to a more typical age of say 64 or more
at his death, as son of the 8th Earl and his wife Ermengarde.

Your further comments on this conjecture, and suggestions for
further documentation, would be much appreciated. When I get a chance,
perhaps there are more leads in Bain's work.

John,

I think the scenario you state is perfectly plausible and consistent
with the divergent wording on the two dispensations. I would point out
that the 1320 document is technically distinct: it is a papal mandate,
granting papal authority to a local figure (prior of Roxburgh) to issue
a dispensation on behalf of the church. The 1324 document is a
dispensation proprement dit, effected through the bishop of Glasgow.

At least according to the calendar, the latter dispensation specifically
refers to Patrick as 'earl of March'. Is it possible that a son would
have been given this title in 1320x23, while the father was still alive
and styled 'earl of Dunbar'? I haven't followed all the politics here,
so don't know whether this is an impossible suggestion. It certainly
seems plausible that, as you've conjectured, there is a father-son pair
here, and the son succeeded to an 'earldom' (whatever it was) on the
death of his father, between the two dispensations.

There's a reasonable amount of recent literature on the years of Robert
Bruce through Robert II--perhaps some of it could be trolled for tidbits
further illuminating these Dunbars.

Has Andrew MacEwen looked at this question, does anyone know?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Diane Sheppard

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 05 aug 2005 14:51:01

Dear Nat,

John's August 4th post at 11:07 has convinced me that he is correct
that there was a second Alexander Dunbar.

However, you raised a good point about looking at the recent literature
on this period. Although none of the books that I have in my library
lay out the revised descent, the following books provide good
background material on the various earls and might be worth consulting
for those who are interested in more that the basic facts about a
particular individual. The following list is not in any particular
order. All of the books are available directly through Amazon or
through their used book program.

1. GWS Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of The Realm of
Scotland", Edinburgh University Press, reprint, 1999
2. Alan Young, "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314",
Tuckwell Press, reprint 1998
3. Michael Brown, "The Black Douglases", Tuckwell Press, reprint 1999
4. Stephen Boardman, "The Early Stewart Kings Robert II and Robert III,
1371-1406, Tuckwell Press, reprint 1997.

Thanks for posting this suggestion,

Diane Sheppard
4.

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