Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunbar

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Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 05:16:03

Wednesday, 3 August, 2005


Hello All,

The subject of the descent of George, Earl of Dunbar
(d. 1420) from the earlier Earls of Dunbar was lately
discussed on the list, a matter of dispute esp. given the
disagreement between SP and CP on the matter. In essence,
it appears that all sources concur that George was the son
of Sir Patrick de Dunbar (d. 1357), evidently by Agnes
Randolph, and that Sir Patrick was the son of a Sir
Alexander de Dunbar: the dispute arises in assigning Sir
Alexander as a son of either Patrick, [6th] Earl of Dunbar
and his wife Cecilia [SP], or a generation later as son of
Patrick, [7th] Earl of Dunbar and Marjory Comyn [CP].

While I do not have the SP text to hand, as I recall
the the author of the Dunbar pedigree in SP was dealing with
the chronological and identification problems with this
family, and assigned a known Alexander de Dunbar as the
ancestor of Earl George. We know that Patrick, [6th] Earl
[fl. ca. 1213-1289] had a son Alexander. Earl Patrick was
a party to the famed 'Turnberry Band' of 20 September 1286,
together with Robert de Brus (Lord of Annandale and
grandfather of _The Bruce_) and others: so too were his
sons, Patrick [the future 7th Earl, then aged 43 or more],
John and Alexander [1]. We do not have birth dates for
John or Alexander, but as Patrick was born before 11
November 1242 [2] we might roughly surmise birth ranges for
John and Alexander of say 1243-1253.

Little is known directly concerning Sir Alexander de
Dunbar, grandfather of Earl George. We know his son Sir
Patrick is described in a charter of 1331 as 'Patrick de
Dunbar, son of Lord Alexander, son of the Earl of
Dunbar' [3]. Given the birthdate of Sir Patrick's eldest
son George (1340) and the above charter of 1331, it seems
reasonable to assign Sir Patrick a birth range of say
1305-1315, and more likely in the earlier part of this
range, say 1310 or before.

This appears to point toward Sir Patrick de Dunbar as
being the son of an Alexander de Dunbar younger than the
younger son of Patrick, [6th] Earl whom I supposed above to
have been likely born say 1243-1253. Were Alexander de
Dunbar born say 1250-1255, and Sir Patrick born say
1305-1315, then Sir Patrick would have been born to a
father then aged between 50 and 65 years of age. This is
not impossible, but it reaches into the realm of the
unlikely. Likewise, with George, [9th] Earl being born in
1340, if his grandfather Alexander [if born say 1250-1255]
were alive then he would have been aged say 85-90 at the
birth of his eldest grandson. This certainly appears to
suggest a missing generation.

We do have a reasonably contemporaneous record on which
to rely: the letter of George, Earl of Dunbar to Henry IV of
England dated 18 Feb. 1399/1400 about which some doubt has
been raised of late. In that portion of the letter CP
provides in the Dunbar account, Earl George wrote to King
Henry IV,

" If dame Alice the Bewmont was your Graunde-dame, dame
Marjory Comyn, her full sister was my Graunde-dame on
the other side." [4]

While the ancestry of Henry IV is off a generation as
noted by the CP editor, given that the ancestry of a notable
such as Earl George and the descents from the Comyn Earls of
Buchan were susceptible to verification if not widespread
public knowledge it would have been somewhat imprudent for
Earl George to have made such a bald-faced lie, especially
given the life-or-death dealings into which he was entering
at the time. We do not have other specific evidence of
Patrick, [7th] Earl of Dunbar having a son Alexander, but
the chronology of such an assignment would fit the
circumstances better:

Patrick [7th Earl] = Marjory Comyn
fl. 1242-1308 I
________________________I______
I I
Patrick [8th Earl] Sir Alexander
b. say 1280 [1285 per CP] born say 1282-1290
I
I
Sir Patrick = Isabel
born say 1305-1315 I Randolph
d. 1357 I
____________________________________I__________
I I I I I
George John Agnes <siblings>
Earl of Dunbar b. say 1345-1355
fl. 1340-1420 m. (1st) 1369 or before
~ her youngest child born ca. 1380
or later


The foregoing pedigree and chronology works with the
testimony of Earl George's letter of 1399/1400, in which he
calls Marjory Comyn his great-grandmother ["Graunde-dame"].
While further study is certainly welcome, and merited, it
appears reasonable to identify Earl George's grandfather
Alexander as the son, and not brother, of Patrick, [7th]
Earl of Dunbar.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] The text, from Bain's Historical Documents I:22, is
also given in The Red Book of Menteith II:219-220,
No. 12. The relevant section from the 1st line:

" Omnibus hominibus hoc scriptum visuris vel audituris,
Patricius comes de Dunbar, Patricius, Johannes et
Alexander, filii ejus, Walterus Senescallus, comes de
Menethe, Alexander et Johannes, filii ejus,..... "


[2] Patrick was aged 47 [likely the language reads
'47 and more'] at his father's IPM, 11 November 1289
[CP IV:506].


[3] The following is taken from translation of a charter
granted 26 June or 4 September 1331:

' Charter of Patrick de Dunbar, son of Lord Alexander, son
of the Earl of Dunbar, granting and quitclaiming in the
Prior's court at Ayton, on Wednesday after the Feast of St
John the Baptist, to Adam de Pontefract, Prior, and the
Convent of Coldingham, ½ carrucate of land in Swinewood,
which he bought from Thomas, son of Ralph.
Witnesses: Lord Robert de Lawedre, Justiciar of Lothian,
Robert de Lawedre his son, sheriff, Henry de Prendergest,
Hugh Giffard, John de Rayngton, Henry de Swinton, Gilbert
de Lumsden, Roger de Lumsden, John de Paxton , and many
others.
Given at Lower Ayton Wednesday after the Feast of St John
Baptist [26 June or 4 September] 1331 ' [Durham University
Library Archives & Special Collections: Misc. Charter 1038
{Printed: Raine ND App. CCCCXXXII}].

~ It is tempting to suppose that 'Thomas son of Ralph'
from whom Patrick obtained the subject lands in
Swinewood was his father in law, Thomas Randolph,
Earl of Moray (d. 1332). There are insufficient
grounds for making this identification, unfortunately.


[4] CP IV:508, note (f).



* John P. Ravilious

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunba

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 05:54:01

Dear John,
Thanks so much for the detailed discussion as to why it is
likelier that Patrick Dunbar, Earl of Dunbar and March (d 1308 ) and Marjory
Comyn are parents to Sir Alexander Dunbar. As Inheritors of the hereditary
Constableship of Scotland via Galloway and Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester,
the doing of the Buchan branch of Clan Comyn would have been of some interest,
especially as Roger`s other two daughters and co-heiresses were also wed to
prominent individuals, Margaret married (his 2nd wife) William Ferrers, 5th
Earl of Derby and Ellen married Alan la Zouche, Baron Zouche of Ashby la Zouche.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunba

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 20:02:02

First we see the chart as John presented it last

In a message dated 8/3/05 8:06:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Patrick [7th Earl] = Marjory Comyn
fl. 1242-1308 I
________________________I______
I I
Patrick [8th Earl] Sir Alexander
b. say 1280 [1285 per CP] born say 1282-1290
I
I
Sir Patrick = Isabel
born say 1305-1315 I Randolph
d. 1357 I
____________________________________I__________
I I I I I
George John Agnes <siblings>
Earl of Dunbar b. say 1345-1355
fl. 1340-1420 m. (1st) 1369 or before
~ her youngest child born ca. 1380
or later >>
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now could this be amended as follows ?

<< Patrick [7th Earl] = Marjory Comyn
fl. 1242-1308 I
________________________I_________
I I
Patrick [8th Earl] Sir Alexander
b. say 1280 ______________ born say 1282-1290
[1285 per CP] I I I
= Agnes I I I
Randolph Isabel = Sir Patrick
Randolph I born say 1305-1315
I d. 1357
_____________I_____________
I I I
George John Agnes
Earl of Dunbar b. say 1345-1355
fl. 1340-1420 m. (1st) 1369 or before
~ her youngest child born ca. 1380
or later

And then Agnes of Dunbar, would be named not for her mother, but for her AUNT.
And Patrick of Dunbar and Anges have children which line dies out
While Patrick his first cousin [only SIR not Earl] have George who does NOT
call his father Earl
Thus the dispensation is for his aunt and uncle, not his parents.

Comments?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunba

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 20:14:01

In a message dated 8/3/05 8:06:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Little is known directly concerning Sir Alexander de
Dunbar, grandfather of Earl George. We know his son Sir
Patrick is described in a charter of 1331 as 'Patrick de
Dunbar, son of Lord Alexander, son of the Earl of
Dunbar' [3]. Given the birthdate of Sir Patrick's eldest
son George (1340) and the above charter of 1331, it seems
reasonable to assign Sir Patrick a birth range of say
1305-1315, and more likely in the earlier part of this
range, say 1310 or before.

This appears to point toward Sir Patrick de Dunbar as
being the son of an Alexander de Dunbar younger than the
younger son of Patrick, [6th] Earl whom I supposed above to
have been likely born say 1243-1253. Were Alexander de
Dunbar born say 1250-1255, and Sir Patrick born say
1305-1315, >>

That seems a little too much supposition to build a good case on.
If Patrick is named in a charter in 1331 then I would assume he might be at
least 18/21 by that time
So giving him a birthdate of 1310
That would only mean his father Alexander would be born most likely before
1290
His wife Margery of Comyn, I have no good dates on, just a great range of
1230/65
If she were a second wife, there's no reason to believe she could not be
giving birth well into 1310, at the edge making her 45 at that time.
But Alexander as a miscellaneous younger son, does not need to be
next-in-line to Patrick.

In short, I'm not sure I see the problem of allowing Sir Patrick who d 1356/7
[in Candia on his way to the Holy Land] be the son of Sir Alexander of Dunbar
who I have d 1336. Let's make a wild guess that they both died at age 50,
that would put Patrick b 1306 and his father born 1286, allowing Alex's father
Earl Patrick to be 44 at the birth of that son.

Comments?
Will

Diane Sheppard

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: ancestry of George, [9th] Earl of Dunba

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 04 aug 2005 21:23:23

Dear Newsgroup,

John, thanks for posting the transcriptions and translations of
original material on Alexander. It was helpful to see that the editors
of SP did not make any assumptions regarding the fact that Patrick,
John and Alexander were brothers (a possibility that Will Johnson made
regarding the Turnberry Compact).

While your new table would account for a descent that corresponds to
George's letter to Henry IV, I think we are premature in adding an
additional Patrick or Alexander into the mix, at least until we find
some documentary evidence that another Patrick or Alexander existed.

Based on the account in SP, I have made a note of at least 12
references to Alexander that are available to me from books held by the
Detroit Public Library. I am planning to visit the library within the
next few days and to (hopefully) copy the documents rather than merely
take notes. In particular, I am interested in the date of the
document, how Alexander is identified, and whether the identification
is consistent. Based on the accounts in SP and CP, the Patrick who
married Marjorie Comyn was the first Dunbar earl to be referred to as
earl of March. As an example, if Alexander is identified in one or more
of the documents as the son of the earl of March, this would support
your suggestion that there was another Alexander.

You noted: "It is tempting to suppose that 'Thomas son of Ralph'
from whom Patrick obtained the subject lands in Swinewood was his
father in law, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray (d. 1332). There
are insufficient grounds for making this identification,
unfortunately." We can discount this possibility because Thomas,
earl of Moray, was the son of Thomas and Isabel de Kilconquhar, Robert
Bruce's half sister (see Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of
the Realm of Scotland, p. 383)

Diane Sheppard

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