Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

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John P. Ravilious

Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 03 aug 2005 13:02:17

[original post made early 2 August - now in etherea incognita]

Tuesday, 2 August, 2005


Dear James, Leo, Ian, Doug, Diane, Doug, Marilyn, Will, Alex,
et al.,

After a prolonged absence from the lst (due to business, holiday
and other travel) I hope this post finds everyone hale and
hearty.

I read today the recent posts re: the Earls of Dunbar, which
bring up several issues, esp. as relating to reliance upon
secondary sources in general, and concerning the "accepted"
pedigree(s) of the Earls of Dunbar in particular. As noted by
others in those messages and elsewhere, one can feel reasonably
confident in relying on Scots Peerage (SP) and Complete Peerage
(CP) in most cases, but we cannot completely rely on any one
source or combination of sources without question. The many
threads on SGM, and the assembled corrections and additions to CP
made available by Chris Phillips on his website, testify to this.

There are a number of problems with the Dunbar pedigree in SP,
and as noted, the conflict with the account in CP highlights the need
for care and correction. One particular problem (or group of
problems) is the account in CP for the "8th Earl", Patrick [1].

A. The account states that Patrick was "b. about 1285", and
makes statements later in the same and next sentences
based on this; unfortunately, no documentation is cited for
this, which appears to be surmised from the statement
under the previous account for Patrick's father that
"He m., in or shortly before 1282, Marjory, da. of
Alexander (COMYN), Earl of Buchan...." [2]. The date given
in that account also unfortunately is provided with no
documentation, or justificiation.

Besides the siege of Caerlaverock in 1300, Patrick was
present with his father at the Battle of Falkirk in the
English (or Anglo-Scottish) army, 22 July 1298. He is
recorded as Sir Patrick de Dunbar at that time [3]: if the
account in CP is to be taken literally, we are then to
believe he was aged "about 13", and a knight at that, when
in arms at Falkirk. Perhaps someone else among the list
would care to comment on the possibility (or plausibility)
of a young noble, aged say 12 to 14 and not a member of the
royal family, being knighted in 1298 or before. It seems
more likely that he was aged 18, or more, at the time of
Falkirk, and therefore born say 1280 or before.

This is an important issue, in that given the death of
Earl Patrick of Dunbar following his resignation
of the Earldom to his kinsman George Dunbar on 25 July
1368 we are to believe that he was then aged say 88, or
more [if he was in fact born in 1280 or before].

B. The account for this Earl Patrick further states that
"He m., 1stly, in or shortly before 1303, Ermengarde" and
that she was pregnant in 1304; he subsequently married
Agnes Randolph sometime after Sept. 1320. There is no
documentation cited for the 1303 date for the marriage to
Ermengarde: this unfortunately also appears to be a forced
date, between the alleged birthdate for Patrick of "about
1285" and the birthdate of a son Patrick given as 1304 [4].

This matter deserves further study, but I am of the opinion that
there has been a conflation of the careers of two Earls of Dunbar
into this account:

1. Patrick "the 8th Earl", b. say 1270-1280, married to
Ermengarde; and

2. Patrick ["Earl 8.5"], their son, born say 1304 or before,
who married Agnes Randolph, fathered sons Patrick and John
(both d.s.p.), resigned the Earldom to his cousin (1st
cousin once removed) George Dunbar and d. on 11 Nov. 1368.

This would yield the following revised pedigree at this point:


Patrick = Marjory Comyn
"7th Earl" d. 1308 I
_________________I____________
I I
Patrick "8th Earl" Sir Alexander
= Ermengarde de Dunbar
I I
I I
Patrick " 8.5 " Sir Patrick = Isabel
d. 1368 = Agnes Randolph d. aft 19 Sept I Randolph
I 1356 I
_________I__ _________________________I_____________
I I I I I I I
Patrick John George John Agnes <siblings>
dsp dsp E of E of =(1) John Maitland
Dunbar Moray ~ David II of Scots (not md.)
1368-1420 =(2) James Douglas of
Dalkeith


~ Note the above agrees more with the placement given in
CP as to the ancestry of George Dunbar (d. 1420) and his
siblings, vs. the account in SP. I will address this issue
more directly in a separate post; however, this above would
answer 'Yes' to the question, do Patrick Dunbar and Marjory
Comyn have living descendants.


Certain texts may provide further certainty: among those that
hold the most promise in this matter are the dispensations granted
for the marriage of Patrick de Dunbar to Agnes Randolph cited (with
sources being documented) in CP IV:507, note (d). It is possible
that the wording in those dispensations may indicate if the husband
of Agnes Randolph was then Earl, or son of the Earl, in 1320 or
1323/4. Should anyone have access to same, or a documented
reference that can be sought, that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES:

[1] Following is the account from CP IV:507-8, sub DUNBAR,
verbatim:

" VIII. 1308. 8. PATRICK (DE DUNBAR), EARL OF MARCH, or DUNBAR
[S.], b. about 1285; was with his father in 1300 (when
but 15) at Carlaverock. He was aged 24 in 1308/9, having had livery
of his father's lands 10 Nov. 1308. He, like his father, favoured
the English faction, and after the defeat of Edward II at
Bannockburn, 24 June 1314, received him into his castle of Dunbar and
enabled him to escape to England. After losing this unexampled
opportunity of serving his countrymen, he went over to their side,
and was in the Parl. at Ayr in Apr. 1315, when the succession to the
Crown [S.] was settled; was at the capture of Berwick, Mar. 1318,
then being Sheriff of Lothian; signed the letter, 1320, to the Pope
asserting the independence of Scotland; was at the defeat of Dupplin,
12 Aug. 1332, and of Halidon Hill, 19 July 1333, at which time
the fort of Berwick, of which he was Governor, was surrendered to
Edward III, and he himself for the 2nd time joined the English side,
which he again, in the next year, deserted, and assisted in some
small skirmishes against them, while his gallant Countess maintained
a nineteen weeks' siege, from Jan. 1337/8, of the Castle of Dunbar by
the English, whom she forced to retire therefrom <c>. He was at the
defeat of the Scots in the battle of Durham, 17 Oct. 1346, and was
one of the sureties for the release of David II from captivity in
1357, receiving from him various grants, the town of Dunbar being
erected a free burgh in his favour. On 18 Feb. 1360/1 he is
described in Close Rolls as an enemy and rebel whose lands are
forfeited. He m., 1stly, in or shortly before 1303, Ermengarde. On
26 June 1304 she is mentioned as being pregnant. He m. 2ndly,
shortly after Sep. 1320, Agnes <d>, elder da. of Thomas (RANDOLPH),
1st Earl of Moray [S.], sometime Regent [S.], by Isabel, (probably)
da. of Sir John Stewart, of Bonkill. This lady, usually known as
"Black Agnes", the heroine (as before mentioned) of the siege of
Dunbar, became (17 Oct. 1346) by the death of her br., John, 3rd Earl
of Moray [S.], a coh. of that family, whose estates included the Isle
of Man, the Lordship of Annandale, &c. She was living 24 May 1367.
Earl Patrick in her right had, 1357-8, a grant of the EARLDOM <a> OF
MORAY [S.]. Both his sons being dead, s.p., he resigned his
Earldom of March, or Dunbar, to the Crown, who granted the same, 25
July 1368, to his great-nephew and h. male, George Dunbar and "his
heirs." <c> He d. soon afterwards, 11 Nov. 1368 (having possessed
his Earldom 60 years), aged about 83. "

<NOTES, from CP IV:507>

<c> They were commanded by William (de Montagu), Earl of
Salisbury, &c. &c. [text discontinued: no documentation].\
<d> He had Papal disp., 18 Aug. 1320, to m. Agnes, da. of Ralph
[i.e. Randolph] of the diocese of St. Andrews, related to
him in the 4th degree, and again 16 Jan. 1323/4, to remain m.
to her though related in the 3rd and 4th degree. V.G.

<NOTES, from CP IV:508>

<a> The Earldom of Moray [S.} as conferred on Sir Thomas Randolph
in 1314 was a male fief. It was, however, again conferred
9 Mar. 1371/2 on John de Dunbar, next br. of Earl George (who
apparently was heir of line), both being sons of Sir Patrick
Dunbar, by Isabel, yst. da. of Thomas (Randolph), Earl of Moray
abovenamed.
Their names were Patrick, who was b. 1304 and d. before 5
Sep. 1351, and John, living 5 Sep. 1351, and 5 Oct. 1354, who
d. before (this date) July 1368.
<c> This is the first record of any charter settling the title.
In it the Earl is called Patricius Dunbarr, miles, ultimus
Comes ejusdem, referring to the words totum comitatium
marchie which appear in the line above. (ex. inform.
A. H. Dunbar).


[2] CP IV:507, sub " 7. PATRICK [DE DUNBAR]".


[3] 'Patrike de Dunebarre', knight, served with the army of King
Edward I in Scotland fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July
1298 together with his father. His arms are recorded as
' Gules a lion rampant a bordure argent semy of cinquefoils of
the field a label of three points azure' (Falkirk Roll H36).
His father the Earl was then alive: his arms - Gules, a lion
rampant - are noted in the roll as ' les armes le Counte
patrike ' as he was also at Falkirk.


[4] CP IV:508, note (b) as cited in note [1] above.



* John P. Ravilious

Diane Sheppard

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 03 aug 2005 14:41:38

Dear Newsgroup,

John, thank you for your comments on the earls of Dunbar. One conflict
between SP & CP is the numbering, but the parties can be identified
easily by death dates and spouses. The main conflict appears to be the
placements of Alexandar. SP and CP both agree that George was the son
of Patrick who married Isabel Randolph. Both agree that Patrick was
the son of Alexander. The key, therefore, is whether Alexander was the
son of Patrick (d. 1308 or his brother (as stated in SP).

I also agree that resolving the conflict between SP and CP lies in the
primary documents and how the various parties are identified in the
documents themselves versus any interpretations made by the editors.

Over the next few days I plan to make a list of the primary sources as
listed in SP & CP. Some of these sources are available in the Detroit
Public Library. When I am able to visit the library I will try to copy
them. The librarians are sticky on this issue and it depends on the
age, size and condition of the volume. I will focus on particularly on
the dates of the document, the identification of the Dunbars and any
stated relationship to another Dunbar.

Thanks again for your post.

Diane Sheppard

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 02:10:03

In a message dated 8/2/05 9:17:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Patrick was "b. about 1285", and
makes statements later in the same and next sentences
based on this; unfortunately, no documentation is cited for
this, which appears to be surmised from the statement
under the previous account for Patrick's father that
"He m., in or shortly before 1282, Marjory, da. of
Alexander (COMYN), Earl of Buchan...." [2]. The date given
in that account also unfortunately is provided with no
documentation, or justificiation.

Thank you John for this great post.
I wonder if this explains why, in my database, I have an unusual entry for
one daughter of Alexander
It says "Agnes or Marjory or Emma Comyn" And this person is supposed to have
married Malise, 6th Earl Streathearn who d 1312/3

Now perhaps what happened what the confusion in the sources would explain
Agnes [of Randolph] who marries Patrick of Dunbar, Marjory who marries Patrick of
Dunbar, and Emma [Ermengarde] who also marries Patrick of Dunbar.

But just that they are three different Patricks! Father, son and grandson.
Now I have to go through and resource this woman.

You present an interesting idea.
Will

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 aug 2005 03:07:15

In article <1123070537.035832.235690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Certain texts may provide further certainty: among those that
hold the most promise in this matter are the dispensations granted
for the marriage of Patrick de Dunbar to Agnes Randolph cited (with
sources being documented) in CP IV:507, note (d). It is possible
that the wording in those dispensations may indicate if the husband
of Agnes Randolph was then Earl, or son of the Earl, in 1320 or
1323/4. Should anyone have access to same, or a documented
reference that can be sought, that would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES:

NOTES, from CP IV:507

d> He had Papal disp., 18 Aug. 1320, to m. Agnes, da. of Ralph
[i.e. Randolph] of the diocese of St. Andrews, related to
him in the 4th degree, and again 16 Jan. 1323/4, to remain m.
to her though related in the 3rd and 4th degree. V.G.


John, I realize I have notes on these dispensations at hand, as part of
a tabulation I did for an article on marriage litigation &
dispensations. These are where you'd expect them in the published
series [=Calendar of entries in the Papal registers relating to Great
Britain and Ireland: Papal letters, ed. W. H. Bliss (London, 1898-)];
the first is at 2:201 and the second at 2:235. For the first
dispensation/mandate the subject is simply 'Patrick de Dunbar',
apparently not called earl (or not so noted in the abstract). In the
second (post-facto) dispensation, Patrick is definitely called an earl
(I think I jotted down "Earl of March", but can this be correct?), and
Agnes is identified more fully as daughter of Thomas Randolph, earl of
Moray.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 aug 2005 03:11:25

I wrote:

In the
second (post-facto) dispensation, Patrick is definitely called an earl
(I think I jotted down "Earl of March", but can this be correct?)...

er, duh.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Dunbar Dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl Of Dunbar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 aug 2005 04:25:13

Hilarious!

DSH

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-B80734.22151703082005@news1.east.earthlink.net...

| I wrote:
|
| > In the second (post-facto) dispensation, Patrick is definitely
| > called an earl (I think I jotted down "Earl of March", but can
| > this be correct?)...
|
| er, duh.
|
| Nat Taylor
|
| a genealogist's sketchbook:
| http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
|
| my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
| http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

CE Wood

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av CE Wood » 04 aug 2005 04:31:29

Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1242, d 10/10/1308, m. abt. 1282, Marjory Comyn.

One of their sons was:

Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1285, d. 11/11/1368, m. 1st Ermengarde abt 1303,
m. 2nd abt Sep 1320, Agnes Randolph (dau. Thomas Randolph & Isabel
Stewart.

Patrick & Agnes had a dau., Agnes who m. James Douglas, d. 1420.


CE Wood




WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/2/05 9:17:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

Patrick was "b. about 1285", and
makes statements later in the same and next sentences
based on this; unfortunately, no documentation is cited for
this, which appears to be surmised from the statement
under the previous account for Patrick's father that
"He m., in or shortly before 1282, Marjory, da. of
Alexander (COMYN), Earl of Buchan...." [2]. The date given
in that account also unfortunately is provided with no
documentation, or justificiation.


Thank you John for this great post.
I wonder if this explains why, in my database, I have an unusual entry for
one daughter of Alexander
It says "Agnes or Marjory or Emma Comyn" And this person is supposed to have
married Malise, 6th Earl Streathearn who d 1312/3

Now perhaps what happened what the confusion in the sources would explain
Agnes [of Randolph] who marries Patrick of Dunbar, Marjory who marries Patrick of
Dunbar, and Emma [Ermengarde] who also marries Patrick of Dunbar.

But just that they are three different Patricks! Father, son and grandson.
Now I have to go through and resource this woman.

You present an interesting idea.
Will

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 05:54:02

In a message dated 8/3/05 8:39:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wood_ce@msn.com
writes:

<< Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1242, d 10/10/1308, m. abt. 1282, Marjory Comyn.

One of their sons was:

Patrick Dunbar, b. abt 1285, d. 11/11/1368, m. 1st Ermengarde abt 1303,
m. 2nd abt Sep 1320, Agnes Randolph (dau. Thomas Randolph & Isabel
Stewart.

Patrick & Agnes had a dau., Agnes who m. James Douglas, d. 1420.
CE Wood >>

This is the very thing we're discussing.
The idea that Patrick of Dunbar could be a knight and in battle by 14 is
fairly absurd.
Also if the marriage dispensation where he is *not* called Earl in 1320 holds
up, that might be a good indication that Ermengarde and Agnes were married to
two different Patrick of Dunbar's as previously theorized here.

Will

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 aug 2005 20:45:02

In a message dated 8/4/05 11:37:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 4. Patrick, Earl ["8.5"] of Dunbar, obtained the 'followup'
dispensation for his existing marriage to Agnes Randolph,
evidently because they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees
but the original dispensation claimed a 4th degree
relationship only. Patrick is called 'Earl' in this
dispensation, having succeeded his father as Earl of Dunbar
before Jan. 1323/4. >>

Is there something which shows the exact manner in which they were related in
the 3rd and 4th degrees? Does the idea that the 1320 dispensation only
mention one connection and the 1323 mention two means that the families themselves
were confused about their own genealogy?

Thanks
Will

John P. Ravilious

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 aug 2005 03:29:27

Dear Will,

It translates as, " [to] Patrick, son of Earl Patrick of March "
[or, more conventionally, " [to] Patrick, son of Patrick, Earl of March
".

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/4/05 6:39:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

The letter was addressed to "Patricio filio
Patricii comitis Marchiae"

Is this to be read
1) Patrick, son of Patrick [who the latter is] Count of March
or
2) Patrick, son of Patrick, and who [the former is] Count of March

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 03:52:02

In a message dated 8/4/05 6:39:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Sir Patrick was the first of many Scots nobles to whom King Edward
I wrote letters from Portsmouth on 24 May 1297. The letter was
addressed to "Patricio filio Patricii comitis Marchiae" [Stevenson, Hist.
Docs. II:167, No. 429 as cited by Andrew MacEwen], and so was
clearly addressed to him and not his father, the then Earl Patrick. >>


It would be interesting to know what the nature of the letter was.
Would Edward write a letter to a boy just into long pants? It probably
depends on the nature of what he wrote.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 03:54:01

In a message dated 8/4/05 6:39:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Therefore his [Sir Patrick's] father
could not have been the Alexander de Dunbar of the Turnberry Band
(1286), but rather another Alexander de Dunbar, son of Earl Patrick
and Marjory Comyn. >>

I don't understand the logic of this last statement.
Why exactly could Alexander not be of the Turnberry Band (1286) ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 04:05:02

Dear Will,
If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297, then the person in question was the one who
succeeded his father in 1289 at age 47 and more, and so would have been about 54
or so. He was equally attached to the powerful Brus and Comyn families as He
was a grandson of Earl Patrick and Euphemia (Brus) Dunbar of Dunbar and husband
to Lady Marjory Comyn. He died in 1308, aged 66 or more.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 04:12:01

In a message dated 8/4/05 7:05:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297 >>

I thought the statment was "Patrick, son of Patrick count of March" ?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 04:13:01

In a message dated 8/4/05 6:39:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< The letter was addressed to "Patricio filio
Patricii comitis Marchiae" >>

Is this to be read
1) Patrick, son of Patrick [who the latter is] Count of March
or
2) Patrick, son of Patrick, and who [the former is] Count of March

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 aug 2005 22:54:01

Dear John,
My thanks to You for unravelling this puzzle.
Interestingly, Georg, though apparently parting company from his Father`s alliegence to
David II of the Scots followed the example of his Great Grandfather and
granduncle`s politics in adhering to the English / Baliol/ Comyn party. The divided
loyalties are scarce suprising given One Patrick married his stepsister Brus,
his son married a Warkworth / Baliol descendant, then his son married a Comyn,
their son or probably grandson married Thomas Randolph`s daughter Agnes,
whose father while Brus` nephew was most cooperative with his English captors in
1307/08 to such extent that He was friends with Aymer de Valence, Earl of
Pembroke and donned armor to fight his uncle`s forces (see R MacNair Scott " Robert
the Bruce, King of Scots" various pp including 82, 111, 130-32 etc).
Randolph`s father`s ancestry is unknown to me , his wife was a granddaughter of
Alexander le Stewart, 4th hereditary Steward of the Scots. I wonder of the
dispensation wasn`t through the Galloway- Carrick connection.
Regards to Andrew MacEwen for his good suggestions.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2005 00:07:02

In a message dated 8/4/05 7:05:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< If the letter King Edward I of England addressed to
Patricio, Comitus March was in 1297, then the person in question was the
one who
succeeded his father in 1289 at age 47 and more, and so would have been
about 54
or so. He was equally attached to the powerful Brus and Comyn families as He
was a grandson of Earl Patrick and Euphemia (Brus) Dunbar of Dunbar and
husband
to Lady Marjory Comyn. He died in 1308, aged 66 or more. >>

Except James, that reading would give Edward addressing Patrick's father as
Earl even though that person had been dead for 8 years. I would prefer a
reading where both Patrick and his father were still living.

Will

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2005 00:28:02

In a message dated 8/4/05 8:07:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 1 Patrick of Dunbar
----------------------------------------
Death: 24 Aug 1289, Whittinghame, March [East Lothian][1]
Birth: bef 13 Dec 1213[2],[1]
Occ: Earl of March 1248-1289
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (ca1185->1248)
Mother: Euphemia de Brus (-ca1267) >>

John I see you are calling him Earl of March.
But in all the documentation you presented on him, it always refers to him as
Earl or Count of Dunbar.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2005 06:45:02

Dear Will,
I goofed. I answered your query before I`d read and digested
it thoroughly. Of course it read that Edward I wrote a letter to Patricius,son
of Patricius, Comitius Marchiae in 1297. His Father, not He was about 54
given his age as 47 and more in 1289, when He succeeded his father. Patricius,
the Earl`s son was I believe 24 according to John, which means He was born in
about 1273 and he seems to have had a son Patricius born in 1304 to his wife
Ermengarde, not the most popular given name for a Scots woman. could She have
been English ? Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray`s mother is a puzzle. He is
continually refered to as a nephew of King Robert I of the Scots, yet it is often
denied that She was daughter of either Adam de Kilquohar or a daughter of
Margaret of Carrick by Robert VI Brus, Earl of Carrick and Lord of Annandale
either.
This would appear to leave us with 4 possible options.
1 His mother was a natural daughter of Robert VI Brus
2 His mother was a natural daughter of Margaret, Countess of Carrick
3 His mother was a sister of Robert VII Brus/ King Robert I of Scots
1st wife Isabel, daughter of Donald I, 6th Earl of Mar (unless there is a
record of Elizabeth Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I
4 the original records refer to Thomas, 1st Earl of Moray as being
Robert I`s nepos but the meaning is younger kinsman rather than nephew.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Dunbar dilemmas: Patrick, [8th] Earl of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 aug 2005 08:52:02

In a message dated 8/5/05 9:44:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Of course it read that Edward I wrote a letter to Patricius,son
of Patricius, Comitius Marchiae in 1297. His Father, not He was about 54
given his age as 47 and more in 1289, when He succeeded his father.
Patricius,
the Earl`s son was I believe 24 according to John, which means He was born
in
about 1273 and he seems to have had a son Patricius born in 1304 to his wife
Ermengarde, not the most popular given name for a Scots woman. >>

Just to make clear. I'm not sure we can *say* he was 24.
The most we can say really is that he appears to have been born before 1275,
but there really aren't any firm birthdates for any of these fellows. His son
Patrick was not born IN 1304, but rather before 1305. One problem with the
whole line, is the lack of any good firm birthdates to grasp onto.

Will Johnson

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