Good Morning,
I am curious/confused on the post of the daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy. I
know that Geoffrey died before his father and his son died s.p., but I
have not seen any direct reference thus far that Geoffrey had a daughter
too. I would surmise, as one only can do at this point, that as Rohais,
Geoffrey's sister and Richard's eldest daughter, had livery of the whole
barony as it was in those days, that Geoffrey's son who died s.p., too,
must have died before Richard, his grandfather, otherwise, Geoffrey's
alleged dau. would then have had livery of the barony as opposed to her
aunt Rohais and then passed to her husband Walter Fitz Robert. It is
curious that Geoffrey's son is listed as having died s.p., which usually
is indicative that he was of age and married, but no heirs. If someone
could clear up this curious confusion and list original source documents,
it would be appreciated.
Best Regards,
Emmett Butler
Lucy(daughters)? Curious Confusion!!?!
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Lucy(daughters)? Curious Confusion!!?!
Dear Emmett ~
Thank you for your good post.
Sir Richard de Lucy's heir at his death in 1179 was his son, Geoffrey's
minor son, Richard de Lucy, who died without issue sometime before
Michaelmas 1182. On Richard's death, his heir was his full brother,
Herbert de Lucy, who was born about 1171. Herbert de Lucy likewise
died without issue in or before 1189. At Herbert's death, his heirs
were his two full sisters, Rose (or Rohese) de Lucy (wife of John de
Dover and Nicholas Fitz Alan) and Maud de Lucy (wife of William de
Beauchamp) or Maud's heirs. Herbert de Lucy may also have had another
full sister or two, but I've found no particulars of them, and I
believe they died without issue. This train of events is all set out
in pleadings found in the Curia Regis Rolls.
Besides his full sisters, Herbert de Lucy also had two half-brothers,
Geoffrey de Lucy (died 1234), of Newington, Kent, and Robert de Lucy,
clerk. The half-brothers did not inherit the Lucy estates as they were
half-siblings to Herbert de Lucy. Herbert's full sisters inherited
ahead of his half-brothers, as was the custom in those days.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
butlergrt wrote:
Thank you for your good post.
Sir Richard de Lucy's heir at his death in 1179 was his son, Geoffrey's
minor son, Richard de Lucy, who died without issue sometime before
Michaelmas 1182. On Richard's death, his heir was his full brother,
Herbert de Lucy, who was born about 1171. Herbert de Lucy likewise
died without issue in or before 1189. At Herbert's death, his heirs
were his two full sisters, Rose (or Rohese) de Lucy (wife of John de
Dover and Nicholas Fitz Alan) and Maud de Lucy (wife of William de
Beauchamp) or Maud's heirs. Herbert de Lucy may also have had another
full sister or two, but I've found no particulars of them, and I
believe they died without issue. This train of events is all set out
in pleadings found in the Curia Regis Rolls.
Besides his full sisters, Herbert de Lucy also had two half-brothers,
Geoffrey de Lucy (died 1234), of Newington, Kent, and Robert de Lucy,
clerk. The half-brothers did not inherit the Lucy estates as they were
half-siblings to Herbert de Lucy. Herbert's full sisters inherited
ahead of his half-brothers, as was the custom in those days.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
butlergrt wrote:
Good Morning,
I am curious/confused on the post of the daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy. I
know that Geoffrey died before his father and his son died s.p., but I
have not seen any direct reference thus far that Geoffrey had a daughter
too. I would surmise, as one only can do at this point, that as Rohais,
Geoffrey's sister and Richard's eldest daughter, had livery of the whole
barony as it was in those days, that Geoffrey's son who died s.p., too,
must have died before Richard, his grandfather, otherwise, Geoffrey's
alleged dau. would then have had livery of the barony as opposed to her
aunt Rohais and then passed to her husband Walter Fitz Robert. It is
curious that Geoffrey's son is listed as having died s.p., which usually
is indicative that he was of age and married, but no heirs. If someone
could clear up this curious confusion and list original source documents,
it would be appreciated.
Best Regards,
Emmett Butler
-
Ginny Wagner
Lucy Charters Across the Sea
Pg. 63 of Calendar:
"Abbey of St. John, Foucarmont, Diocese of Rouen:
"[1140-1148] (Cartulary, fo. 87d.)
"183. Charter of Richard, son of earl Gilbert [of Pembroke]. He
grants to the abbey of Foucarmont what he has acquired, or may
acquire, by purchase or at ferm, in the fief of Garinipratum or
Fraisnellum free of multure, of corvees(corveiis) and all other dues,
save only the service of the vavassors, etc.[2]
"Testes sunt: Robertus de Bosco Rohardi' Rogerus de Wanchi; Hosbertus
de Grueniu; Radulfus de Luci. Predictam autem quietantiam a moltura,
quam ego feci, sub eisdem testibus fecit et Radulfus presbiteri
filius."
The above is the first I'd seen of a Ralph Luci.
1169-1175 Henry II at St. Andre-en-Gouffern, #600, signed by Gaufrido
de Lucy
1180-1181 Henry II at Hospital of St. Jean, Angers, #1157, signed
first by Gauffrido de Luci footnoted: Archdeacon of Derby
("Godefrido" in Angers text)
ca. 1180 Henry II at Abbey of Longues, diocese of Bayeux, #1448,
Gaufrid de Lucy
1182-1184 Henry II at Comte d'Eu, grants of tithes of money and
various products from England, #1419, signed by Godefrido de Luci
and, interstingly, Johanne Eborancensi archiepiscopo first and
Gaufrido cancellario filio meo, second. Luci was third signator.
1180-1182 Henry II, at abbey of la Couture, Le Mans, #1037, Godefrido
de Luce (I gave this charter under the Rivers charters, earlier --
pg. 365)
1197 13Aug #768 Abbey of Mont St. Michel, "Charter of Godfrey bishop
of Winchester, notifying that with the assent and at the wish of
abbot Jordan and the convent of Mont St. Michel, and on their
presentation he has instituted Philip de Lucy, clerk, as parson of
the church of Saleburn, saving the annual pension of three marcs,
which Philip is bound to pay to the said abbot and monks within three
weeks of Michaelmas and saving the grant of Mere to himself by the
liberality of the monks. Datum apud Meredon[4], per manum Reginaldi
clerici nostri, idibus Augusti, pontificatus nostri anno octavo.
Testibus hiis: Eustacio de Falcomba; Johanne de Luci; Roberto de
Cornevilla; magistro Willelmo de Turre; magistro Willelmo medico;
Johanne capellano; Godefrido[5]; Philippo de Falcomba, Stephano,
clericis."
1164 #1063 Henry II giving 60 librates of land: in Hudefortsire
(sic)[5] [Bedefortsire], his manor of Lectona; in Buckinghamsire
4l. from the manor of Radenai. Testibus: Nigello episopo Eliensi;
Roberto comite Legrecestrie; comite Gaufrido; Richardo de Luci;
Hugone de Gundevilla; Hugone de Luc[i] capellano; Simone filio
Petri; alano de Nevilla[6]["Neuull"]; Johanne Mald[uith]; Petro de
la Mara. Apud Westmonasterium.
There are, of course, a number of charters under Richard -- the ones
in Stephen's early years are interesting. In 1170-75 there is a
signature of Johannes filius Luce.
The following I have picked from a charter, pulling the names I am
familiar with but there are more -- hope I didn't garble the meaning,
but it does place a number of names with places:
In 1184-1187, charter 912. Henry II grants to the abbey of ST. Lo of
Coutances and the canons regular there serving God, ... gifts of Algar
and Richard bishops of Coutances confirmed by Hugh, Rotrou, and
Walter, archbishops of Rouen ... that share of the church of St.
Ermeland which belonged to the fee of John de Campellis; the church of
st Thomas the Martyr at St. Lo; of the gift of Ralf de Haia fourteen
acres of land, etc. ... of that of William earl of Arundel a sextary
of wheat from the mill of Roard at Aubuigni [Aubigny], William de
Tracy the tithe of his mills of Humeel, Gerard de Bruis twenty-four
quarters of wheat and five shilings annually from his mill of Londa
.... William de Haia a sextary of wheat from (in) St. Martin de mesons
.... of that of William de Diva twelve quarters of wheat from the
church of Fleury (Flureium) according to the compromise made between
the abbot of St. Lo and Enguerrand de Humeto concerning the mill of
Martinvilla, and a moiety of that mill; of that of William de
Siccavilla the church of St. Peter of Grismesnil; ... of that of
Richard de Lucy St. Croix "de Vasto." Testibus: Willelmo de Hum[eto]
constabulario; Willelmo de Aubuigni comite Susexie; Willelmo de Sancto
Johanne; Berterranno de Verdun; Willelmo de Moion; Ricardo de
Ca[n]villa; Stephano de Turn[ham?].[Turno] Apud Valonias.
Ginny
"Abbey of St. John, Foucarmont, Diocese of Rouen:
"[1140-1148] (Cartulary, fo. 87d.)
"183. Charter of Richard, son of earl Gilbert [of Pembroke]. He
grants to the abbey of Foucarmont what he has acquired, or may
acquire, by purchase or at ferm, in the fief of Garinipratum or
Fraisnellum free of multure, of corvees(corveiis) and all other dues,
save only the service of the vavassors, etc.[2]
"Testes sunt: Robertus de Bosco Rohardi' Rogerus de Wanchi; Hosbertus
de Grueniu; Radulfus de Luci. Predictam autem quietantiam a moltura,
quam ego feci, sub eisdem testibus fecit et Radulfus presbiteri
filius."
The above is the first I'd seen of a Ralph Luci.
1169-1175 Henry II at St. Andre-en-Gouffern, #600, signed by Gaufrido
de Lucy
1180-1181 Henry II at Hospital of St. Jean, Angers, #1157, signed
first by Gauffrido de Luci footnoted: Archdeacon of Derby
("Godefrido" in Angers text)
ca. 1180 Henry II at Abbey of Longues, diocese of Bayeux, #1448,
Gaufrid de Lucy
1182-1184 Henry II at Comte d'Eu, grants of tithes of money and
various products from England, #1419, signed by Godefrido de Luci
and, interstingly, Johanne Eborancensi archiepiscopo first and
Gaufrido cancellario filio meo, second. Luci was third signator.
1180-1182 Henry II, at abbey of la Couture, Le Mans, #1037, Godefrido
de Luce (I gave this charter under the Rivers charters, earlier --
pg. 365)
1197 13Aug #768 Abbey of Mont St. Michel, "Charter of Godfrey bishop
of Winchester, notifying that with the assent and at the wish of
abbot Jordan and the convent of Mont St. Michel, and on their
presentation he has instituted Philip de Lucy, clerk, as parson of
the church of Saleburn, saving the annual pension of three marcs,
which Philip is bound to pay to the said abbot and monks within three
weeks of Michaelmas and saving the grant of Mere to himself by the
liberality of the monks. Datum apud Meredon[4], per manum Reginaldi
clerici nostri, idibus Augusti, pontificatus nostri anno octavo.
Testibus hiis: Eustacio de Falcomba; Johanne de Luci; Roberto de
Cornevilla; magistro Willelmo de Turre; magistro Willelmo medico;
Johanne capellano; Godefrido[5]; Philippo de Falcomba, Stephano,
clericis."
1164 #1063 Henry II giving 60 librates of land: in Hudefortsire
(sic)[5] [Bedefortsire], his manor of Lectona; in Buckinghamsire
4l. from the manor of Radenai. Testibus: Nigello episopo Eliensi;
Roberto comite Legrecestrie; comite Gaufrido; Richardo de Luci;
Hugone de Gundevilla; Hugone de Luc[i] capellano; Simone filio
Petri; alano de Nevilla[6]["Neuull"]; Johanne Mald[uith]; Petro de
la Mara. Apud Westmonasterium.
There are, of course, a number of charters under Richard -- the ones
in Stephen's early years are interesting. In 1170-75 there is a
signature of Johannes filius Luce.
The following I have picked from a charter, pulling the names I am
familiar with but there are more -- hope I didn't garble the meaning,
but it does place a number of names with places:
In 1184-1187, charter 912. Henry II grants to the abbey of ST. Lo of
Coutances and the canons regular there serving God, ... gifts of Algar
and Richard bishops of Coutances confirmed by Hugh, Rotrou, and
Walter, archbishops of Rouen ... that share of the church of St.
Ermeland which belonged to the fee of John de Campellis; the church of
st Thomas the Martyr at St. Lo; of the gift of Ralf de Haia fourteen
acres of land, etc. ... of that of William earl of Arundel a sextary
of wheat from the mill of Roard at Aubuigni [Aubigny], William de
Tracy the tithe of his mills of Humeel, Gerard de Bruis twenty-four
quarters of wheat and five shilings annually from his mill of Londa
.... William de Haia a sextary of wheat from (in) St. Martin de mesons
.... of that of William de Diva twelve quarters of wheat from the
church of Fleury (Flureium) according to the compromise made between
the abbot of St. Lo and Enguerrand de Humeto concerning the mill of
Martinvilla, and a moiety of that mill; of that of William de
Siccavilla the church of St. Peter of Grismesnil; ... of that of
Richard de Lucy St. Croix "de Vasto." Testibus: Willelmo de Hum[eto]
constabulario; Willelmo de Aubuigni comite Susexie; Willelmo de Sancto
Johanne; Berterranno de Verdun; Willelmo de Moion; Ricardo de
Ca[n]villa; Stephano de Turn[ham?].[Turno] Apud Valonias.