William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to regioster of

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
paul bulkley

William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to regioster of

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 31 jul 2005 21:39:01

Bearman "Charters of the Redvers Family" discusses
briefly the early origins of the Redver family who's
home base was Reviers, Calvadas, arr Caen cant
Creully.

Stapleton claimed that there were three brothers
Richard, William, and Baldwin according to a 1060
Charter. Richard died 1060, and he theorised that
Richard de Redvers, the favored counsellor of Henry
Ist, was a son of Baldwin.

Presumably Stapleton was aware of Charter 1258 (CDF)
issued 1060 in which Landri Abbot of St Pere
(Chartres) recorded a gift by Richard (Knight).
Witness: Raber and William de Vernon.

It would appear that Richard de Redvers was an adult
in 1060, so it is quite reasonable to assume that
prior to his death that he had married and had
children. On that basis there was no need of Stapleton
to arrive at a rather questionable claim that Richard
de Redvers, his sister Adeliz, and brother Hugh were
the children of Baldwin.

On the premis that they were in fact Richard's
children, they would have all been born prior to 1060.
It is known that Richard de Redvers must have married
Adelise Peverel 1086-1088, and died premature in 1107.
Adelicia married Richard de Angerville, and her
brother Richard confirmed that the land at Benouville
granted to Montebourg Abbey was the land of his
sister.

The parents of the three brothers Richard, William,
and Baldwin requires further investigation. The common
name usage of both Vernon and Redvers suggests a
family connection. Keats Rohan suggests that perhaps
Hugh de Vernon and wife (daughter of Fulk Fitz Osbern,
who's mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman
duchess Gunnor) were the parents.

Charter 82 (CDF) dated 1067 Notification by William de
Vernon (son) Hugh and wife Emma of agreement made and
to the Abbot Rainer in Vernon Milt Place to receive
fellowship of Abbey Holy Trinity Rouen, freedom of
toll of property including castle of Vernon. Witness:
William and Emma.

Is this William de Vernon one of the three brothers or
not?

Bearman claims that the Revier Estate 1089 centred in
Nehou (Contentin) and Vernon (Vexin), so it is quite
likely that the Charter 82 William de Vernon was one
of the three brothers, and that Hugh Vernon and wife
Emma were the parents.

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to regioste

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 01 aug 2005 00:09:48

paul bulkley wrote:

It would appear that Richard de Redvers was an adult
in 1060, so it is quite reasonable to assume that
prior to his death that he had married and had
children.

Except that it appears from contemporary material that he had no
children. Everyone seems in agreement on this.

Keats Rohan suggests that perhaps
Hugh de Vernon and wife (daughter of Fulk Fitz Osbern,
who's mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman
duchess Gunnor) were the parents.

In DP she says this. In her Notts. Medieval Studies article, she says
that the mother was a sister of Fulk. I think she has made a msitake in DP.

taf

Ginny Wagner

RE: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to regioste

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 01 aug 2005 06:53:02

<An obvious avenue is to verify the wife of
William de Vernon 1050/1060, and details of their
children. >

The index of Round's Calendar of Documents from which I gave the
Redvers also has an interesting list of Vernons:

Vernon, Vernun [Eure], 23, 142, 469
castle of, 23, 529
port of, 97, 100
Vernon, Raber de, 456
Richard (son of William [II]) de, 35, 101, 309, 318, 469, 537
charter of, 317, 336
Richard son of, 469
Walter de, 59, 219
William (I.) de, 456
gifts of, 23
Emma wife of 23,
Hugh son of, 23
William (II., brother of Baldwin, 1st earl), 34, 309, 314, 336, 343,
349, 518
gifts of, 309, 317
Robert de Sancte Marie ecclesia brother of, 314
William (III.), the younger (son of Baldwin 1st earl), 316, 318
earl of Devon, 322
charter of, 321
Mabel wife of, 321


pages 97 and 100 have to do with the port of Vernon. page 142 is to
do with a list of aggression ca. 1088-1099 against the abbey of the
Holy Trinity, Caen, of which Hugh de Redeveris, who withheld, yerarly,
five muids of wine and a vineyard at Vernun, ...and others. I may
have missed another entry, if so and anyone wants to see it, or those
at the port, let me know.



Pg. 23:

Abbey of the Holy Trinity, Rouen

"[Circ. 1087] Cartulary, No. xvi. Trans. 13. See ut supra, p. 430.

"Notification that William de Vernon (Vernonensis) his son Hugh and
his wife Emma, receiving the fellowship of the abbey have given Holy
Trinity [freedom from] toll on all its property, by water or by land,
so far as concerns themselves or the castle of Vernon. This agreement
was made in the market place (foro) of Vernon by abbot Rainer, before
suitable witnesses, to whom also, at their urgent request, be granted
the fellowship of the abbey. William king of the English and duke of
the Normans assents.

"{Signa] Willelmi Regis Anglorum; Willelmi Vernonensis; Emme uxoris
ejus; Orardi; Normanni filii Ruil; Anseredi filii Gerelmi; Walterii
filii Ricardi; Raberii longi; Letardi thelonarii; Gisleberti Taillant;
Herberti macecrarii; Willelmi filii Gonfredi macecrarii; Osmundi filii
ejus; Ricardi filii Herberti gravatoris."

Page 34 Town of Rouen, charter 109 has a very long charter by Henry,
duke of Normady dated 1150-1 that establishes the same rights to the
town and its members that they held when King Henry was alive and
dead. It is a very interesting document for its particulars from a
historical standpoint but too long for me to type out here although I
would be glad to send a scan of it to anyone who emails me requesting
it. The last paragraph is:

"Has etiam concessiones tenendas ceperunt in manu Phippus Baiocensis
episcopus, et Arnulfus Lexoviensis episcopus, et eas affiduciaverunt
tenendas Walleranus comes Mellenti, Helias frater ducis [Gaufridi],
Willelmus[1] Lupell[us], Robertus de Novo burgo, Richerius de Aquila,
Willelmus de Vernone, Rogerius de Toenio, Baudricus de Bosco,
Hamalricus Crespin, Goschelinus Crespin, Gislebertus Crespin, Henricus
de Ferr[ariis], Robertus de Torceio, Ricardo (sic) de haya,
Enguer[gerus] de Bohun, Alexander de Bohun, Guido de Sabl[olio],
Absalon Rongnart, archiepiscopo Rothomagensi; Reg[inaldo][2] de Sancto
Waller[ico]; Pagano[3] de Clarevalle; Enguerranno de Saio. Apud
Rothomagum.

"[fn1] Trans.: "ducis Willelmi." [fn2] Trans.: "Rogero" [fn3]
Trans.: "Pageno."




Page 249 Abbey of Mont St. Michel:
"[1024-6] (Cartulary, fo. 21.[3] [fn3] the modern numbering has been
adopted. Trans. Vol. II. fo. 215)

"701. Charter of Richard [II.] duke and prince of the Normans.
Seeking to escape the pains of hell and obtain the joys of paradise,
after the death of his body, he delivers to Mont St. Michel, and the
brethren there serving God as monks a certain vill of his own alod
(alodii) in the Bessin, Versum by name, with all its lands cultivated
or not, and all the mills, with meadows and woods. This he does for
the redemption of his soul and those of his father and mother, his
wife and his sons. Curses on those who violate this testimony of his
gift (hujus donationis testamentum).

"[Signa] Richardi magni comitis; Richardi filii ejus; Rotberti filii
ejus; Willelmi; Gonnor matris comitis; Papie uxoris comitis; Rotberti
archiepiscopi; Hugonis Baiocensis episcopi; Hugonis Ebroicensis
episcopi; maugisi Abrincatensis episcopi."



pg. 314 Abbey of Monebourg:

"[1142-1155] (Ibid., fos. 4, 139 Trans vol. II. fo. 175)

"878. Letter of Adeliza de Reviers to Goscelin bishop of Salisbury,
notifying her gift to the abbey of Montebourg of the manor of
Ouelaium[1], which is in his dicese, free and quit, by consent of her
sons and grandsons, her father William Peverel of Notingham having
given that manor with her to Richard de Revers, and she having held it
in her own demesne till the time of this gift. She implores him
therefore to confirm this gift of his mercy, and to protect the monks
there dwelling, etc. ... "

'[fn1] Ouuelay on fo. 4.



same page:

"[1142-1155] (Original in archives. Trans Vol. II. fo. 186.)

879. Charter of Baldwin earl of Exeter notifying that, for the weal
of his soul and those of his father and mother and all his
predecessors and successors, he grants to the abbey of Montebourg and
the monks there serving God all the gifts made to them by his father,
Richard de Reveriis, in England, wholly quit of all dues to himself,
his heirs or representatives (proheredes) namely, a manor in Devon, in
the diocese of Exeter, called Axemud, with all its appurtenances and
the church; and a fishery, with two draggers (traeribus[2]), who are
there to drag with nets; another manor in Dorset, in the diocese of
Salisbury, in the isle of With called Wica, with all its
appurtenances. He also grans a manor in Berkesyr, in the diocese of
Salisbury, called Oluelay,[3], which Adeliz de Reveriis gave, with all
its appurtenances; also all the gifts made or to be made by his men in
land or anythings else, free from all dues to himself, his heirs or
representatives.

"His testibus: Ricardo de Redvers; Willelmo filio Johannis; Willelmo
de Morevilla; Hugone Pevrel; Willelmo filio Estur; Ricardo de
Caisneio; Rogero capellano; Pevrel de Argentonio."

"[fn2] Trans.: "Tracribus."




same page:

(Originial in archives. Trans. Vol II. fo. 191) [1142-1155]

Vidimus by Peter royal bailli of the Cotentin in 1288 of the
following: --

880. Charter of Baldwin earl of Exeter. He gives to St. Mary of
Montebourg, with the permission of his sons Richard, Henry and his
brothers William de Vernone and Robert de Sancte Marie Ecclesia, for
the weal of his soul, and for the souls of his father and mother, his
predecessors and successors, a certain manor in Berkshire, Ouelay,[4],
by name, with all its appurtenances.

Comitis vero signum: [Signa] Ricardi filii sui; Willermi de
Morevilla; Jordani de Lestrie; Gaufridi Spencer; Walteri de Clamorgan;
Willermi de Vernone; Roberti fratris ejus."

"[fn4] Trans.: "Onelay."




pg. 316: Abbey of Montebourg

"[1171] (Original in archives. Trans. Vol. II. fo. 180)

"887. Charter of Henry king of the English, duke of the Normans and
count of the Angevins, son of king Henry, addressed to the
archbishops, etc. of England. He confirms to the abbey of montebourg
the manor of Wuelay [4], with its appurtences, which Alice de
Reveriis, mother of earl Baldwin gave them, of her marriage portion,
for ever, and which William de Vernon the younger confirmed.

"Testibus: Gaufrid archidiacono Cantuariensi; Ricardo archidiacono
Pietavensi; Reginaldo Sarisberiensi [1]; [archidiacono]; Johanne
decano[2]; Ricardo de Ca[m]ville; Reginaldo de Curtenay; Willelmo de
Lanval[eio]; Hugone de Cressy; Willelmo de Sancto Johanne. Apud
Burum.

"[fn4] "Wnclay" in transcript. [fn1] "Sarresbury" in Transcript.
[fn2] i.e., of Salisbury."



Pg. 318 Abbey of Montebourg:

"[1175. March] (Original in archives Trans Vol. II. fol 189)

"891. Charter of Henry II. confirming to the abbey of Montebourg all
William de Vernon's gifts to it of the chapel of St. MAglorius in the
island of Serck.

"Testibus: Godefrido episcopo Eliensi[1]; magistro Waltero [de]
Constanciis archidiacono Oxoniensi; Ricardo de Vernone; Fulcone
Paienello; Ricardo de Canvilla[2]; Raginaldo de Curtenay; Hugone de
Cressy; Willelmo de Vernone juniore. Apud Cadomum.[3]

"[fn1] Rectius: "Gaufrido." [fn2] Trans.: "Cauvilla." [fn3] A
general confirmation by the king to the abbey of all the grants made
to it, with the same witnesses and at the same place was "inspected,"
in 1381 (Montebourg Cartulary, fos. 1-3d)."



Page 321 Abbey of Montebourg:

"[Circ. 1196] (Cartulary, fo. 5, Trans. Vol. II. Fo. 111)

"904. Charter of William de Vernone, earl of Devon notifying that for
the weal of his soul, and those of his wife Mabel he predecessors and
successors, he approves the gift made by his grandmother Adeliz de
Revers to the abbey of St. Mary of Montebourg and its monks of the
manor of Wolvel in Berkesyr with all its appurtenances.

"Hiis testibus: Willelmo filio Estur; Waltero de Insula; Rogero de
Aula; Samson Foliot; Willelmo et Thoma de Monasteriiis; Willelmo de
Insula; Ricardo de Daneu ...[11]; Roberto pincerna; Paulino et Symone
clericis, et multis aliis.

"[fn11] Trans.: "Dawentry."



Same page:

"[Circ. 1196] (Cartulary, fo. 6. Trans. Vol. II., fo. 112.)

"905. Letter of William earl of Devon to Hubert, archbishop of
Canterbury, primate of all England, and legate, and to the barons of
the exchequer of his lord the king notifying that he has restored, out
of piety, to the abbey of Montebourg the manor of Wolvel' ut supra.
He prays them of their charity to confirm what he has done."



Page 322 Abbey of Montebourg:

"[1195-97. 26 June.] (Cartulary, fo. 6 Trans vol. II fo. 112.)

"906. Letters of patent of Hubert archbishop [1] of Canterbury,
primate of all England, notifying that William de Vernone earl of
Devon has, in his presence, restored to Montebourg abbey the manor of
Wolvelay, with all its appurtenances, which Adeliza de Reveriis, his
grandmother, had given to the abbey, whose gift the earl had confirmed
by his charter, which the primate has inspected. And the earl has
quitclaimed that manor to the abbey for ever ....

"Testibus: H[erberto] Sar[isberiensi[2]] episcopo; Gaufrido filio
Petri; Hugone Bard[ulf]; Willelmo Bruwer; Gaufrido de Boel'. Apud
Westm[onasterium][3] xxvj.Junii. Per magistrum Adam de Walsingham.

"[fn1] Trans.: "episocpus" [fn2] Trans.: "Salisbury." [fn3] Trans.
: "Westim"



Page 456 Abbey of St. Pere, Chartres, [Cartularies in Bibliotheque
Nationale and Public Library of Chartres[1]

'[1060, 4 Aug] (Cartulaire de St. Pere de Chartres I. 152)

"1256. Charter of Landri, abbot of S. Pere de Chartres, and all the
convent notifying how the land they posses at Gouberville (Gausberti
villa) was given them by a certain knight of noble origin, Richard by
name, and granted by William, the most noble count of Normandy, and
the said knight's brothers, William and Baldwin.

"In the year when there came to an end the long war between king Henry
and count William, the said knight Richard, had been sent with other
Normans, by the count, to guard Timer (Tedmarum castrum), which was
then, with its inhabitants, under anathema. Attacked, while there, by
the illness from which he died, he was in great dread for his soul,
and sent for Nigel, who had married his sister, with other friends,
and begged that Goeffrey a monk of St. Pere, who happened to be
present, would hasten to the bishop and procure absolution both for
him and rfor the others, and that they would carry him to the
monastery for burial, on the terms that the monks, thenceforward for
ever should posses a third of Gouberville, the knights excepted,
namely, whatever he had possessed in houses, lands, meadows, waters,
church, oxen. Absolution having been obtained, and his body buried,
with the rites of religion, among the nobles of the city, the monks
inscribed his ame among those benefactors, to whom they owed their
endowments. The gift was authorised by the above glorious count
William, for the reward of celestial life, at Courdemanche (Curtis
Dominicus), not far from Dreux (castrum Drocis), in the presence of
his nobles of whom these are the names: William son of Osbert, Walter
Gifardus, Fulc de Alno, Hubert de Rigia, Robert Bertrannus, William
Marmion, Rainald Darsellus, Ralf Falchemandus, Humfrey, Turold,
William son of Corbucio[2], Bencelin de Scoht, Raber and William de
Vernone, Hugh son of Gerelm. It was also authorised by the brothers
of the deceased William and Baldwin, that they also might be
partakers, with their brother, in his reward etc. .... Concessa est et
roborata haec donacio pridie nonas Augusti die qua mortuus est
hainricus rex Franciae."

"[fn1] Published in the series of "Documents Inedits" (1840), with
extracts from Dom Muley's 18th century Transcripts from original
charters of the abbey. [fn2] Domesday I., 61, 177b, 243."



page 469 under Royal Charters, Etc.:

"[1196, Jan] (Tresor des Chartes K. 26, Tarns. 44)

"1293. Notification by Philip II that Richard de Vernone and Richard
his son have quitclaimed to him and his heirs for ever, at the behest
of Richard king of the English (Angl') Vernon with its castellany and
Longueville (Longa Villa), both fee and demesne, receiving in exchange
from him, as represting (pro) 800 pounds of Paris rent, certain
estates (specified) to be held of him and his heirs in fee and liege
homage by the service of five knights, according to the usage and
custom of France.

"Actum Parisiis anno incarnati verbi MC nonagesimo quinto, regni
nostri anno septimo decimo.


page 518 Abbey of Mortemer in the Appendix I:

"1147, 11 Oct. (MS. lat. fo. 26)

"1405. Charter of Geoffrey duke of Normandy (sic) and count of Anjou,
addressed to Hugh archbishop of Rouen and generally, making same
grants as above for the souls of his father Fulk king of Jerusalem and
his mother the countess Erenburgis, and himself and his wife Maltildis
and his sons and king Henry (I.) and all his friends.

"Testes hujus rei sunt: Ricardus cancellarius; Willelmus de Romara
comes Linc[olnie]; Willelmus de Vernon; Robertus de Novoburgo;
Alexander de Boh[un]; Osbertus de Caileio; Eng[elrannus] de Walcoil;
Joisleno de Turr[ibus]; Goffredo de Brueria. Hec vero concessio facta
est et hec carta data apud Rotomagum anno ab incarnatione Domini
MCXLVII a pascha precedenti mense Octobri v id' ejusdem mensis epacta
xxviij."





This from Power's The Norman Frontier:

Vernon (Nehou)

1. Richard II de Redvers d. 1107 = Adeliza Peverel dc. 1160
1.1 Adeliza = Baldwin de Redvers d. 1155 (Earl Baldwin I of Devon)
1.1.1 earls of Devon (to c. 1191)
1.1.2 William de Vernon, earl of Devon c. 1191-1217
1.1.2.1 Earls of Devon (to 1293)
1.2 William I de Vernon fl. 1107-66 = Lucy de Tancarville d. bef.
1166
1.2.1 Richard I de Vernon d. 1196x1211 = Isabella
1.2.1.1. Baldwin d. by 1196
1.2.1.2. Richard II d. 1231 x 34 = Lucy du Hommet fl. 1234
1.2.1.2.1 John castellan of Montmelian d. 1232 (o.x.) x 1234 =
Elizabeth her 2 husband = William de Chantilly (castellan of
Monmelian, 1236)
1.2.1.2.2 William II de Vernon fl. 1273, d. 1284 castellan of
Montmelian = Alina
1.2.1.2.3 Peter d. by 1234
1.2.1.2.4 Isabella d. 1254 lady of Plailly = William d. by 1254
1.2.1.3 Margaret fl. 1249 = (1) John Arsic d. 1205, (2) Thomas of
Stokes fl. 1205, (3) William Buzun fl. 1217 x 23
1.2.2 . Matilda fl. 1185 = Richard de la Haye d.c. 1169
1.2.3. Hugh (clk.) fl. 1174
1.2.4. Dreux d. 1212? = ?Alice
1.2.5 Baldwin d. by 1166
1.2.6 Juliana fl. 1216 = William de Venoix d. by 1216
1.3 Hawise fl. 1162 x 71 = William I de Roumare
1.4 Robert de Ste-Mere-Eglise
1.5 Hugh de Vernon d. by 1174?
2. Adeliza
3. (brokn line) Hugh de Redvers (Rights at Vernon)

Robert de la Haye fl. 1286 ld. of nehou

Mary = William Caletot fl. 284-7 castellan of Montmelian

Powers has more interesting discussion on the Vernon/Redvers in
several places in the book as well as a full page of discussion of
this chart.

Hope all this sheds some light on the subject. ;-) Ginny

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»