Richardson told me......................................Circular argument
leading nowhere, for brevity I have removed the later part.
Dear Leo
I noted your difficiulty in finding John's post so have forwarded it
below. He gives evidence from a Merton priory charter of Godfrey, bishop
of Winchester calling Pharamus his uncle. There is no bibliographical
reference for the charter and DR must have witheld it otherwise John would
have posted it. We will have to wait until DR's article is produced and he
discusses his sources and evidence properly, as John simplistically
assumes that 'avunculus' was used to mean maternal uncle at the time. It
did not - it could also mean mother's sister's husband, mother's brother,
father's sister's husband, father's brother and these could relate to half
siblings too etc., so we need more to support it. So if I were you I'd
wait until the evidence is published before amending your database instead
of rushing into adding it.
Cheers
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Thursday, 16 June, 2005
Dear Brice,
Thanks for the details on the de la Pole daughter.
Following is the descent from Eustace II of Boulogne and Ida of
Lower Lorraine to Eleanor de Furnival, via de Lucy, and Fitz Walter
and de Luvetot.
Cheers,
John *
1 Eustace II of Boulogne
----------------------------------------
Death: 1093
Occ: Count of Boulogne -1093
Father: Eustace I of Boulogne (-1047)
Mother: Matilda of Louvain
Count of Boulogne
fought at Battle of Hastings (see CP XII Appendix L, pp. 47-48)[1]
married 1stly (as 2nd husband) Goda of England[2],
2ndly Ida of Lower Lorraine[3]
cf. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 202 (Lorraine)[3]
Spouse: Ida of Lower Lorraine [2nd wife]
Death: 13 Aug 1113[3]
Father: Godfrey 'the Bearded' of Lorraine (-1069)
Mother: Uda (-<1054)
Marr: Dec 1057, Cambrai[4]
Children: Eustace III, count of Boulogne (->1125)
Godfrey de Bouillon, 'King' of Jerusalem(-1100)
Baldwin I, King of Jerusalem(-1118)
Goisfred (->1086)
1.1 Goisfred de Boulogne
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1086[5],[6]
of Carshalton, co. Surrey
'Goisfrid filius Eustachii Comitis', held the manor of Carshalton at
the time of Domesday Book, 1086 [DP 229[6] ; Wagner, Pedigree and
Progress;[5] see also Todd A. Farmerie, 'William Fiennes, 'Sire de
Fiennes et de Tingry'[7]]
' Geoffrey son of count Eustace ', received Aulton, Surrey as
the maritagium of his wife:
' Geoffrey himself holds Aulton. Five freemen (held it) of King
Edward, and they could take what lord they pleased. Of these one held
2 hides and four 6 hides apiece. There were five manors. Now it is
thrown into one manor. It was then assessed for 27 hides, now for 3½
hides. The land is for 10 ploughs. In demesne there is one; and
(there are) 9 villeins and 9 cottars with 5 ploughs. There is a
church; and 7 slaves; and 12 acres of meadow. The men of the county
and of the hundred say that they have never seen the writ or the
livery officer who on the kings behalf had given Geoffrey possession
of the manor. In the time of king Edward it was worth 20 pounds; when
he took possession of it, 100 shillings, now ten pounds. Of these
hides Wesman holds 6 hides of Geoffrey son of count Eustace. Geoffrey
de Mandeville gave him this land with his daughter [as a dowery]. In
demesne there is one plough; and (there are) 3 villens and one cottar
with three ploughs; and a mill worth 35 shillings; and 3 slaves; and
10 acres of meadow. Wood worth 2 hogs. The land is for two ploughs.
In the time of king Edward it was worth 4 pounds, and afterwards 40s,
and now 110 shillings. Of the same hides a certain smith of the
King's has half a hide, which in the time of king Edward he received
with his wife, but he has never done any service for it.' [Domesday
Book, for Carshalton[8]]
frequently referred to in error as 'Geoffrey' de Boulogne [the name
'Godfrey' having earlier been erroneously assigned to his famous
brother, 'Godfrey' of Bouillon][7]
cf. Genealogics # I00305429 [cites ES III:621][9]
Spouse: Beatrice de Mandeville
Father: Geoffrey de Mandeville, of Great Waltham, Essex (-<1100)
Mother: Athelaise
Marr: bef 1086[6]
Children: William (-ca1130)
1.1.1 William de Boulogne
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1130[10]
of Carshalton, co. Surrey[5]
cf. Genealogics #I00305427 [cites ES III:621][9]
Children: Pharamus de Boulogne(->1153)
Rohese, m. Richard de Lucy
1.1.1.1 Rohese de Boulogne
----------------------------------------
identification by Doug Richardson, based on the following charter in
which her son Godfrey, bishop of Winchester identifies his uncle
[brother of his mother] as Pharamus de Boulogne [Pharamuso de Bolonia
avunculo nostro]:
"545. Merton priory.
Inspeximus and confirmation for the canons of Merton of a charter of
bishop Godfrey of Winchester which confirms the grant to them of the
church of Carshalton, and its confirmation by his predecessor,
bishop Richard. The canons may convert the fruits and obventions in
proprios usus, making provision for a perpetual vicar with a vicarage
worth six marks. [Feb. 1198 X Dec. 1204]
Hubertus dei gratia Cantuariensis archiepiscopus totius Anglie primas
omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis ad quos presens scriptum
pervenerit eternam in domino salutem. Ad universitatis vestre
notitiam volumus pervenire nos cartam venerabilis fratris nostri
Godefridi Wyntoniensis episcopi diligentius inspexisse, per quam
dilectis filiis nostris canonicis ecclesie beate Marie de Merton'
ecclesiam de Aultona confirmavit in hec verba. Omnibus Christi
fidelibus ad quos presens scriptum pervenerit Godefridus dei gratia
Wyntoniensis episcopus eternam in domino salutem. Considerantes
religionis fervorum domus Mertonie et bonam conversationem
dilectorum canonicorum ibidem deo servientium suavissime redolentem,
eis in iustis petitionibus suis deesse nolumus nec debemus. Inde est
quod nos, inspectis instrumentis predictorum canonicorum super
ecclesia de Aultona a nobili viro Pharamuso de Bolonia avunculo
nostro eis donate et a predecessore nostro Ricardo bone memorie
quondam Wyntoniensi episcopo confirmata, eandem donationem et
confirmationem iuxta quod in prefatis instrumentis continetur ratam
habemus et presenti carta nostra confirmamus, statuentes ut predicti
canonici omnes fructus et obventiones ex prefata ecclesia de Aulton'
provenientes in proprios usus licite possint convertere. Volumus
etiam nichilominus quod ad presentationem eorum prepetuus vicarius
per nos et successores nostros Wyntonienses episcopos in ea
instituatur, cui constituimus vicariam ad valentiam sex marcarum,
qui in ea ministrabit ipsamque ecclesiam de oneribus episcopalibus
exonerabit. Ut igitur quod a predicto episcopo prefatis canonicis
pia consideratione factum est firmum et perpetuum robur optineat,
supramemoratam confirmationem ipsius rationabiliter factam ratam
habemus et tam presenti scripto quam sigilli nostri testimonio
confirmamus.
Hiis testibus: magistro Ricardo cancellario nostro, Rannulfo
thesaurario Saresberiensis ecclesie, magistro Simone de Scalis,
magistro Godefrido de Insula, et aliis, etc." [Cheney, 201-202[11]]
Spouse: Richard de Lucy, of Diss; Justiciar of England
Death: 1178, Lesness, Kent (d. a monk)[12]
Father: NN de Lucy
Mother: Avelina
Children: Avelina de Lucy, m. Gilbert de Montfichet
Maud
Geoffrey de Lucy [father of Rohese de Lucy] (-<1178)
Alice de Lucy, m. Odinel d'Umfrevilleee
Godfrey de Lucy, bishop of Winchester(-1204)