William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the register

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paul bulkley

William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the register

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 29 jul 2005 01:48:01

Todd Farmery made some interesting observations
regarding my suggestion (theory) that possibly Richard
de Revier was the nephew of William Fitz Osbern First
Lord of Isle of Wight.

I think Boyd's description of the Osbern family is
confusing and needs clarification. If Boyd's claims
are correct, evidence is required to support them.

Todd expressed doubt about my theory that William de
Vernon and Emma (Fitz Osbern) were Richard's parents,
and that William Fitz Osbern was the uncle of Richard.
Perhaps Todd is correct but one cannot help wondering
about a probable relationship. Why should Henry Ist
grant the title of Lord of Isle of Wight to Richard de
Redveir? Clearly a close relationship of de Redvier
and Fitz Osbern is a simple and convenient
explanation. Has anyone a better explanation?

Another interesting aspect is that both William Fitz
Osbern and William Peverel were close confidents of
William the Conqueror; both individuals were awarded
considerable properties and authority; and both
families seem to be related to the Redviers. Adeliz
daughter William Peverel married Richard de Redviers.

Anyhow like all theories, some solid evidence is
desirable. An obvious avenue is to verify the wife of
William de Vernon 1050/1060, and details of their
children. Any offers?

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley



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Ginny Wagner

RE: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the regi

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 29 jul 2005 03:26:01

<An obvious avenue is to verify the wife of
William de Vernon 1050/1060, and details of their
children. >

I happen to have a couple of books from the ILL on loan right now and found
some things of interest:


From Domesday People, pp. 360-1:

"Ricardus de Redvers

"Norman, from Reviers, Calvados, arr. Caen, cant. Creully; held a single
identifiable manor in Domesday Book, in Dorset. After the accession of
Henry I he was given the honour of Plympton, a collection of former Domesday
tenancies in chief that was to become the earldom of Devon in the time of
Richard's son Baldwin (Sanders, 137). Apparently son of Baldwin, a brother
of Richard de Redvers who d. c. 1050; these brothers were the sons of an
unknown father, perhaps Hugh de Vernon, and the daughter of Fulk fitz
Osmund, whose mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman duchess Gunnor,
according to Robert of Torigny (discussed in Keats-Rohan, 'Aspects of Robert
of Torigny's genealogies revisited', Nottingham Medieval Studies 37 (1993);
R. Bearman, Redvers Charters, Introduction). By his wife Adleisa, daugher
of William I Peverel of Nottingham, he left issue Baldwin, Robert de
Sainte-Mere-Eglise, Hugh de Vernon, William de Vernon and Hawise, later wife
of William I de Roumare, earl of Lincoln. He died in 1107, when his
succcessor Baldwin was still a minor." A long list of charters come after.

I've given ... where they gave the Latin words to cut down on the amount of
typing although they did one ... themselves, before etc.

A charter at abbey of la couture, le mans ca. 1180-2 p. 365 of French
Calendar of Documents, 918-1206: "Charter of Henry II addressed generally.
He notifies that Richard abbot of St. Pierre de la Couture and his monks
sought him out ... at Mayet .. that he might confirm ... a gift made to them
by Hugh de Semur, as it was of his [Henry's] fee. When they were there,
urging this request, Hamelin de Feigna opposed them, asserting that the said
endowment was of his fee. The king, therefore, commanded Hugh, the
benefactor, to be summonedin the presence of STephen, seneschal of Anjou,
Peter the son of Guy, John de Mala, and many others, and made diligent
enquiry ... of whose fee was that endowment. Hugh acknowledged ... that he
hedld that fee of the king in homage ..., etc. ... For further certainty,
the king directed his officers of Mayet and jurors ... to be assembled,
adjuring them by the oath which bound them to him [to say] whether that
endowment was of his fee. With one voice they all protested that it was,
etc. ... adding that a duel or judgement ... there would be decided before
his officers at Oize .... Having thus ascertained the truht, he confirmed
.... the gift, at the prayer of abbot Richard and the monks.

"Testibus: [Ricardo] Wintoniensi episcopo; magistro Waltero de
Const[anciis]; Godefrido de Luce; W[illelmo] de Sancte Marie ecclesia;
comite Baldoino de Rivers, et fratre ejus, et pluribus aliis apud
Rothomagum."

There are other charters: General Index:

Reviers (Calvados), Rivers, Revers, Reveriis, Revariis, Redvers, Redveriis,
Redeveris, Retviers, Adeliza or Alice (Peverel, wife of Richard) de, 316,
321, 322, 462.
... gift of, 314.
Beatrice de, 215
Baldwin (son of Richard) de (1st) earl of Exeter or Devon, 462
... charter of, 314
Adeliza wife of, 462
Henry son of, 314
Richard (2nd earl), son of, 314, 462
Robert, brother of. See Sancte Marie Ecclesia
William brother of. See Vernone
Richard de, the monk, kinsman of, 462
Baldwin de, (3rd) earl of, 365
Richard, (4th) earl brother of, 365
Baldwin (?son of William 5th earl) de, 303
Hugh de, 142
Richard (I.) de, 55, 313, 314, 315, 462
Adeliza (Peverel) wife of. See Reviers, Adeliza de
Richard (II., temp. John) de, 163, 312, 340

Let me know if you want any of these scanned and emailed to you tomorrow.
I'm tired of typing today and probably gonna go relax with my hubby in front
of a DVD! Lol.

;-) Ginny

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the regi

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 jul 2005 07:35:00

paul bulkley wrote:

Todd expressed doubt about my theory that William de
Vernon and Emma (Fitz Osbern) were Richard's parents,
and that William Fitz Osbern was the uncle of Richard.
Perhaps Todd is correct but one cannot help wondering
about a probable relationship. Why should Henry Ist
grant the title of Lord of Isle of Wight to Richard de
Redveir? Clearly a close relationship of de Redvier
and Fitz Osbern is a simple and convenient
explanation. Has anyone a better explanation?


William's sons rebelled, and Henry had to give it to someone.

Anyhow, this is needless speculation - we know, from the same source
that reports the regrant, that Henry gave it to Richard, nepos of
William Fitz Osbern. The reason he chose Richard is presumably because
Richard was nepos of William. This does not, however, illuminate the
meaning of nepos here. Would Henry have felt some prohibotion against
giving it to a first-cousin, once removed? A second cousin? What
relationship was too distant (considering that Henry is also known to
have given land to people entirely unrelated to those he confiscated it
from)? Given that we known he made such confiscations and regrants
among the descendants of Gunnor, need this particular one represent a
closer relationship? Given that Richard was (apparently) great grandson
of one of Gunnor's nieces, and William's father was one of Gunnor's
nephews, the known Gunnorid releationship need be no more than one
generation further removed, so need we force a closer tie? Likewise,
this Fitz Osbern marriage would have been between either first-cousins
once removed or second cousins once removed, both a bit close for Norman
tastes.

Another interesting aspect is that both William Fitz
Osbern and William Peverel were close confidents of
William the Conqueror; both individuals were awarded
considerable properties and authority; and both
families seem to be related to the Redviers. Adeliz
daughter William Peverel married Richard de Redviers.

Again, we already know this - William Fitz Osbern was related to Richard
de Redvers via their shared descent from Gunnora's siblings, and known
kin of William the C himself.

We are back where we started - it is known that Richard and William were
related via the Gunnorids. What specifically points to them ALSO being
related via this proposed marriage. (For example, did the Redvers hold
any lands prior to their kinsmen's rebellion that might have come to
Osbern via his wife?)

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

DP correction (?) (was Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged son

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 30 jul 2005 17:18:01

Ginny Wagner wrote:

From Domesday People, pp. 360-1:

"Ricardus de Redvers

"Norman, from Reviers, Calvados, arr. Caen, cant. Creully; held a single
identifiable manor in Domesday Book, in Dorset. After the accession of
Henry I he was given the honour of Plympton, a collection of former Domesday
tenancies in chief that was to become the earldom of Devon in the time of
Richard's son Baldwin (Sanders, 137). Apparently son of Baldwin, a brother
of Richard de Redvers who d. c. 1050; these brothers were the sons of an
unknown father, perhaps Hugh de Vernon, and the daughter of Fulk fitz
Osmund, whose mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman duchess Gunnor,
according to Robert of Torigny (discussed in Keats-Rohan, 'Aspects of Robert
of Torigny's genealogies revisited', Nottingham Medieval Studies 37 (1993);
R. Bearman, Redvers Charters, Introduction).

Robert de Torigny stated that a niece of Gunnor married Osmund de
Centumvillis, having Fulk de Alneio and a daughter, mother of Baldwin de
Reviers. Note, then, that Baldwin's mother is sister of Fulk Fitz
Osmund, not his daughter. Further, Keats-Rohan presents it as such in
her Notts Med Studs article cited here. Considering these poeple (Fulk,
Osmund, and Satselina) are known from a single charter of 1012 (if it is
even them), there seems little basis for a chronological readjustment.
Thus, I think this is a simple mistake, and that "and the daughter of
Fulk Fitz Osmund" should have said "and the sister . . ."

taf

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