Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descendant

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descendant

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 02:03:02

Dear Newsgroup Members,
According to D Richardson`s recent
work on Magna Charta Ancestry, p 60 under Beaumont Marjory Comyn, daughter of
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan by Elizabeth de Quincy married Patrick Dunbar,
Earl of Dunbar and March. At the end of the paragraph Richardson states They
have no living descendants his source being CP IV: pp 506-07, however
according to Weis MC 5 line 108B Generation 4 citing the same together with SP II pp
254-6 and SP III P 263 as well concluded that They had descendants including
Margaret Dunbar, wife of Alexander Lindsay , 4th Earl of Crawford. I wonder
which is correct.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living desce

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 jul 2005 02:19:02

According to a quick count in my system, Marjory Comyn and her husband have
some 57,886 descendants recorded in my website.. Many are alive today such
as Prince William of Wales, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen and Peter de
Loriol, but then my data base is not as praise worthy as others :-)
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descendants ?


Dear Newsgroup Members,
According to D Richardson`s
recent
work on Magna Charta Ancestry, p 60 under Beaumont Marjory Comyn, daughter
of
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan by Elizabeth de Quincy married Patrick
Dunbar,
Earl of Dunbar and March. At the end of the paragraph Richardson states
They
have no living descendants his source being CP IV: pp 506-07, however
according to Weis MC 5 line 108B Generation 4 citing the same together
with SP II pp
254-6 and SP III P 263 as well concluded that They had descendants
including
Margaret Dunbar, wife of Alexander Lindsay , 4th Earl of Crawford. I
wonder
which is correct.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


Doug McDonald

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 28 jul 2005 15:16:15

Leo van de Pas wrote:
According to a quick count in my system, Marjory Comyn and her husband
have some 57,886 descendants recorded in my website.. Many are alive
today such as Prince William of Wales, Doug McDonald, Andrew McEwen and
Peter de Loriol, but then my data base is not as praise worthy as others
:-)


Well, this is messy little place in my files. If one believes
CP, there certainly is a way past this particular point. CP gets you to
James Dunbar (d. 1429) Earl of Moray, then SP gets you through
Westfield, Altcash, and to Conzie. Thence references in primary
documents gest you to Rose of Bellivat and thence to me. SP most
certainly differs with CP in the placement of one link, placing the
critical Alexander Dunbar one generation earlier in the Dunbar line,
as daughter of Patrick who m. Cicily, rather than his son who
married Comyn. If SP is correct, then Richardson could possibly be
correct.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 01:48:02

Dear Doug,
It certainly is a messy place. While Patrick, Earl of
Dunbar and March and Cecily Fitzjohn de Warkworth neither appear to have had an
Alexander in their immediate familial ancestry, their eldest son Patrick
married a daughter of Alexander Comyn, 2nd Earl of Buchan ,a rather safe name to
give one`s child at that juncture even if that worthy fell from power as it was
also the King`s name and as for evidence as witness to charters, He belonged
to either. He was a Brother to Patrick, Earl of Dunbar ( and / or March) and
likewise uncle of a Patrick. more information is needed to determine which of
the successive Earls was Alexander`s father.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 29 jul 2005 06:40:00

I think that it should be stated that Cecilia filia Johannis is only
conjecturally daughter of John FitzRobert of Warkworth, although I am
happy to accept the conjecture myself.

Most Earls of Dunbar were called Patrick, but I don't think it is too
difficult to tell them apart. Cecilia's husband Patrick died in 1289.
Their son Patrick married Marjorie Comyn and died in 1308. They had
Patrick, the next Earl, Alexander and John of Birkinside, of whom no
issue is recorded. Patrick married Black Agnes of Moray and died
withour surviving issue in 1368; Alexander (d 1336) had Sir Patrick (d
1356), who had by Isabel Randolph, co-heiress of the last Randolph Earl
of Moray, both George Earl of Dunbar and Sir John, 1st earl of Moray of
the Dunbar creation.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 29 jul 2005 08:55:39

Dear Alex ~

When I was doing research for my book, Magna Carta Ancestry, this past
year, I came across a record which indicated that Sir Alan de Clavering
(died 1328), of Callaly (in Whittingham), Northumberland, was pardoned
in 1306 for the death of his brother, Roger de Clavering, "at the
request of Patrick, Earl of March, Ingram de Umfreville, John de
Mowbray, and Alexander de Abernathy" [Reference: Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1301-1307 (1898): 430].

If Andrew MacEwen has correctly identified the parentage of Cecily Fitz
John (as I believe he has), then her descendant, Patrick, Earl of
March, would have been near kinsman to Alan de Clavering. If so, then
this would explain Earl Patrick's appearance in this record. I suspect
the other individuals may also have been closely related to Alan de
Clavering. For instance, I believe Ingram de Umfreville was related to
Alan de Clavering through a common descent from the Balliol family.

Your comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
I think that it should be stated that Cecilia filia Johannis is only
conjecturally daughter of John FitzRobert of Warkworth, although I am
happy to accept the conjecture myself.

Most Earls of Dunbar were called Patrick, but I don't think it is too
difficult to tell them apart. Cecilia's husband Patrick died in 1289.
Their son Patrick married Marjorie Comyn and died in 1308. They had
Patrick, the next Earl, Alexander and John of Birkinside, of whom no
issue is recorded. Patrick married Black Agnes of Moray and died
withour surviving issue in 1368; Alexander (d 1336) had Sir Patrick (d
1356), who had by Isabel Randolph, co-heiress of the last Randolph Earl
of Moray, both George Earl of Dunbar and Sir John, 1st earl of Moray of
the Dunbar creation.

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 30 jul 2005 06:34:13

Dear Doug

A quick reply as I have no time to check this. I agree that Ingelram
de Umphraville was of Balliol descent, and he actually used Balliol
arms, Gules a voided escutcheon ermine. I believe the descent to be:
Ingelram, 2nd son of Eustace of Bywell & brother of Hugh of Bywell and
Henry, m a dau of Walter de Berkeley of Urr & d ca 1244 -- Eustace de
Balliol m Agnes de Percy & d 1284 -- Ingelram m Isabelle & dsp 1298,
when Urr and Redcastle went to his conjectural first cousin Ingelram de
Umphraville, presumably the issue of his aunt and an Umphraville
younger son. I haven't studied the Umphraville family, so have no idea
where he could fit in. Clavering along with Eure was of course a
surname used by the Warkworth family, although the lords of Warkworth
seem to have used patronymic "Fitzs".

Mowbray were common both sides of the border and again I haven't
studied them, but they are many and Abernethy is presumably only
Scottish. This Alexander is I take it the last of his line, who had
the two co-portioners Margaret and Maria, who carried this famous blood
into many Scottish families. He died between 1315 and 1317 according
to my notes (no source but pres SP).

I'm sorry not to be able to help much.

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jul 2005 16:22:01

Dear Doug, Leo, Douglas and Will,
I found a slightly
different take on the Diunbar succession in " The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the
Scottish Highlands " by Frank Adam. revised by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney
(8th edition (1970) p 214; which says that Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of Dunbar
married Agnes Randolph, who succeeded her brother John, Earl of Moray in 1346,
She and her husband died without issue in 1368, Dunbar goiing to his
Grandnephew George and his brother John recieved Moray in 1372. Their father was Sir
Patrick Dunbar, their mother was Countess Agnes younger sister Isabelle.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

James Dempster

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av James Dempster » 31 jul 2005 17:12:41

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:22:17 +0000 (UTC), Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Doug, Leo, Douglas and Will,
I found a slightly
different take on the Diunbar succession in " The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the
Scottish Highlands " by Frank Adam. revised by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney
(8th edition (1970) p 214; which says that Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of Dunbar
married Agnes Randolph, who succeeded her brother John, Earl of Moray in 1346,
She and her husband died without issue in 1368, Dunbar goiing to his
Grandnephew George and his brother John recieved Moray in 1372. Their father was Sir
Patrick Dunbar, their mother was Countess Agnes younger sister Isabelle.
Sincerely,

Sir Archibald Dunbar in tables VII & VIII of "Scottish Kings" gives
the relationship of Patrick Dunbar, husband of "Black Agnes" and of
George & John as first cousins once removed.

Patrick Dunbar 7th Earl of Dunbar (b c 1213, d Whittinghame 24th Aug
1289) had issue

1. Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of Dunbar (b 1242, d 10th Oct 1308),
Competitor

2. John Dunbar

3. Sir Alexander Dunbar fl 1288-1318

Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of Dunbar had issue

Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of Dunbar =1 1303 the Lady Ermigarda;
= 2 1323-4 "Black Agnes" (Papal Dispensation 16-Jan-1323-4) and d
1368 with no living issue.

Sir Alexander Dunbar had issue

Sir Patrick Dunbar, present at battles of Durham (17-Oct-1346) and
Poitiers (19-Sep-1356) = Isabella Ranulph and d in Candia on his way
to the Holy Land 1356-7.

Sir Patrick has issue

1. George, 10th Earl of Dunbar d 1416
2. Patrick Dunbar, Lord of Bele, ancestor of Dunbar the poet
3. Agnes = James Douglas, Lord of Dalkeith d bef 19-Dec-1392
4. John, 5th Earl of Moray

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 31 jul 2005 22:47:59

Dear Leo, James, Doug, Alex. Douglas,
Following is the descent to George from SP (vol. 3, pp. 257-273):
1. Patrick, 7th earl, (d. 1289) m Cecilia Fraser
2. Sir Alexander (d after 1331), spouse unknown. Alexander was the
brother of Patrick, 8th earl who married Marjorie Comyn.
3. Patrick (d. 1356-1357 in Candia) m. Isabel Randolph (daughter of
Thomas, earl of Moray, d. 1332, and sister of Black Agnes who married
Patrick 9th earl, son of Patrick who married Marjorie Comyn)
4. George, 10th earl (d. 1423) m Margaret or Christiana Seton

SP notes that on Sept 30, 1286, Patrick, 7th earl and his three sons,
Patrick (8th earl who married Marjorie Comyn), John and Alexander (d
after 1331) joined with the Bruces, the principals of the Stewart
family and the MacDonalds in a bond for mutual defence and assistance.
The compact was signed at Turnberry. (p. 258)

SP (p. 260) also notes that in 1331, Patrick (d 1356-1357) quitclaimed
his interest in Swinwood to the monks at Coldingham as Patrick, son of
Sir Alexander, son of the Earl.

For those who prefer viewing a more extended outline descent, following
is a link to Patrick, 7th earl and his descendants in my database:
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I13004
(place on one line)
Hope this helps,

Diane Sheppard

Doug McDonald

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 aug 2005 13:57:14

Diane Sheppard wrote:

Dear Leo, James, Doug, Alex. Douglas,
Following is the descent to George from SP (vol. 3, pp. 257-273):
1. Patrick, 7th earl, (d. 1289) m Cecilia Fraser
2. Sir Alexander (d after 1331), spouse unknown. Alexander was the
brother of Patrick, 8th earl who married Marjorie Comyn.
3. Patrick (d. 1356-1357 in Candia) m. Isabel Randolph (daughter of
Thomas, earl of Moray, d. 1332, and sister of Black Agnes who married
Patrick 9th earl, son of Patrick who married Marjorie Comyn)
4. George, 10th earl (d. 1423) m Margaret or Christiana Seton



Yes, that's what SP says. I know what SP says. I know what CP says.
They differ. SP was published in 1906, corrections volume in 1914.
CP was published in 1916, corrections volume in 1998. There are no
corrections in either corrections volume. Note that a note in CP
specifically says that George, son of Patrick d. 1356, claimed
Marjory Comyn as "graunde-dame" which SP specifically says
means great grandmother; in any case, ancestor. This would make
CP correct, which is why I used it. But this seems the only direct
evidence quoted by either, which is why I asked. If "graunde-dame"
indeed means great-grandmother, it is conclusive.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 aug 2005 15:30:13

Doug McDonald wrote:

... Note that a note in CP
specifically says that George, son of Patrick d. 1356, claimed
Marjory Comyn as "graunde-dame" which SP specifically says
CP


not SP!

means great grandmother;

It was much too early this morning, and my morning hike was ruined,
though my lungs saved, by stopping short due to the worst hydrocarbon
smog I have ever experienced.

Doug McDonald

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 01 aug 2005 18:07:27

Dear Doug,
Although I could be wrong in doing so, I generally follow SP for
Scottish nobility when it comes to a conflict with CP because SP's
discussion is usually much longer, cites more primary documents and
becuase it lays out all the children of a particular couple. This does
not mean that I dislike or distrust CP, its just that SP takes eight
volumes to discuss the Scottish Peerage, whereas CP uses 14 for all
peers.

The key appears to be whether George, 10th earl, was correct when he
wrote to Henry IV about their common ancestry. In addition to the
possibility of an outright mistake (all of us know people who can't
name their great grandparents, let alone the siblings of the great
grandparents), this would not be the first time that questions have
arisen regarding the correct translation of a term used in the 15th
century (specifically graunde dame).

The letter from George, 10th earl, to Henry IV does create a question
regarding the line as shown in SP. SP discusses this letter in volume
3, pp. 263-264. It points out (among other things) that George was
mistaken in his statement that Alice Comyn, who married Henry Beaumont
& was the great grandmother of Henry IV, was a sister of Marjorie
Comyn, George's graunde dame "or great-grandmother." SP further states
that Marjorie was the aunt, not sister of Alice Comyn. SP concludes on
p. 264 "if Marjorie Comyn were the wife of the eighth earl, it seems
impossible that she could have been the great grandmother on the
father's side of George 10th earl of March. It may be assumed that
Wymtoun** is right, that this earl Patrick (referring to the eight
earl)did mary a Comyn, but that Earl George made a mistake as to his
relationship to her."

**Wyntoun's "Cronykil" states that the eldest daughter (who he does not
name) of Alexander Comyn, earl of Buchan married a Patrick earl of
Dunbar. (SP, 263). SP then points out the error in George's statement
regarding the relationship between Alice Comyn and Marjorie Comyn. SP
then states that Patrick, 8th earl is the only earl whose "date suits
with a daughter of Alexander earl of Buchan and they must have been
contemporaries."

Based on the discussions in CP and SP, it appears that CP believed that
George's letter to Henry IV, stating his relationship to Marjorie was
correct. SP, on the other hand, believes that George was incorrect in
his statement of his relationship to Marjorie. SP relies on 1.
Patrick's quitclaim deed to the monks at Coldingham, in which he states
his ancestry as son of Sir Alexander, son of the earl, 2. the agreement
with the Bruces and Stewarts, on which Sir Alexander is listed with his
brothers as sons of Patrick, 7th earl(cited yesterday). 3. finally, in
the discussion of George, 10th earl (p. 270), they refer to an early
manuscript of Fordun's Annales (Skene, i, 377, note 3), in which it is
stated that the Patrick who fought at Poitiers and left for the Holy
Land was George's father. They then state that Patrick married Isabel
Randolph.

Hope this helps rather than further complicates the issue.

Diane Sheppard

Symonds

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Symonds » 01 aug 2005 19:34:01

Were you in Houston, Texas?

Marilyn

Doug McDonald wrote:

It was much too early this morning, and my morning hike was ruined,
though my lungs saved, by stopping short due to the worst hydrocarbon
smog I have ever experienced.

Doug McDonald


Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 20:33:01

In a message dated 7/31/05 7:21:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Dear Doug, Leo, Douglas and Will,
I found a slightly
different take on the Diunbar succession in " The Clans, Septs & Regiments
of the
Scottish Highlands " by Frank Adam. revised by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney
(8th edition (1970) p 214; which says that Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of
Dunbar
married Agnes Randolph, who succeeded her brother John, Earl of Moray in
1346,
She and her husband died without issue in 1368, Dunbar goiing to his
Grandnephew George and his brother John recieved Moray in 1372. Their father
was Sir
Patrick Dunbar, their mother was Countess Agnes younger sister Isabelle. >>

Thank you for this, but this squares completely with the previous messages.

Sir Patrick of Dunbar married Isabel Randolph, sister to Agnes of Randolph,
Countess Moray in 1346.

Sir Patrick and Isabel had four children: George Earl of Dunbar in 1368,
John, Earl of Moray in 1372, Patrick and Agnes married Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith.

The descent of Moray to this John is likely through his *mother* not his
great-aunt, since his mother should be the next inheritor on the death of her
elder siblings right?

Patrict 9th Earl of Dunbar died 1368
Patrick 8th Earl of Dunbar died 1308
And this one who d 1308 is the father of both Patrick 9th who died with no
posterity and also of Alexander, the grandfather (through his son Sir Patrick)
of George, John, Patrick and Agnes mentioned.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 20:42:01

In a message dated 7/31/05 3:00:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< SP (p. 260) also notes that in 1331, Patrick (d 1356-1357) quitclaimed
his interest in Swinwood to the monks at Coldingham as Patrick, son of
Sir Alexander, son of the Earl. >>

However the "Earl" in 1331 would have been Patrict, 9th Earl who d 1368.
So this quitclaim is suspect.
Was he really the grandson of the 8th Earl who d 1308 or could he have been
grandson of the 7th Earl who d 1289 ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 20:52:02

In a message dated 8/1/05 10:15:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< 2. the agreement
with the Bruces and Stewarts, on which Sir Alexander is listed with his
brothers as sons of Patrick, 7th earl(cited yesterday). >>

"Brothers" is an assumption is it not?
Does the document actually state "brothers"?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 01 aug 2005 21:27:15

Dear Will,
I have only seen the SP coverage, so I cannot comment on any
assumptions that may have been made. However, my very rough
translation of the legend on Alexander's seal (see #5 below)seems to
confrim SP's statements and at least the relationship between Alexander
and Patrick, 7th earl.
SP (p. 258-260) cites the following for their statements regarding the
relationships:
1. For the agreement at Turnbery: Stevenson's Historical Documemts, i,
22, 23
2. p. 259 -Sir Patrick and his brothers (Sir John & Sir Alexander) are
all described as knights in an undated charter of their father dating
to 1386-1389),
3. p 259 - Sir John also appears as a witness to charters by his father
and brothers (Chartulary of Coldstream 1, 14, 16)
4. p 259 - Sir Alexander - Alexander III granted him 20 merks sterling
which was paid to the king's death (Stevenson - 56-58, 65, 94, 204) "
there are other important references to him" (Rotuli Scotia, i, 16B;
Chartulary of Coldstream, 1, 14, 16; Reg de Dryburgh, 233)
5. p 260. the legend on Sir Alexander's seal attached to a receipt (the
date is not stated) for the fee referred to in 4 (paid up to the king's
death in Sept 1289): "ALEXANDRI FILII COMITIS DE DVNB" (caps used in
text). A very rough translatin - I last took Latin in 1961 - Alexander
son of the count? of Dunbar. Alexander's father (Patrick, 7th earl)
died August 24,1289, so a seal which references to the earl prior to
that date would refer to the 7th earl.

Hope this helps,

Diane Sheppard

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 01 aug 2005 21:52:04

Dear Will,
As I stated in my reply, I have not seen the documents. Based on past
expertience, I trust the statements made in SP. I also believe that
when you take everything together that SP is correct.

I provided you with the references used by SP so you could check them
out to see of the editor made any assumptions.

In the ideal world, we would all want to see the primary evidence,
however, it is doubtful that any of us would get back to the medieval
period if we had to rely strictly on primary documents to do so.
Further, I do not have the expertise to translate medieval Latin or
French, so I rely on recognized secondary sources and when I find a
conflict try to resolve that issue based on the text and sources cited
in the secondary sources.

Diane

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 22:36:02

In a message dated 8/1/05 1:30:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< 2. p. 259 -Sir Patrick and his brothers (Sir John & Sir Alexander) are
all described as knights in an undated charter of their father dating
to 1386-1389),
3. p 259 - Sir John also appears as a witness to charters by his father
and brothers (Chartulary of Coldstream 1, 14, 16)
4. p 259 - Sir Alexander - Alexander III granted him 20 merks sterling
which was paid to the king's death (Stevenson - 56-58, 65, 94, 204) "
there are other important references to him" (Rotuli Scotia, i, 16B;
Chartulary of Coldstream, 1, 14, 16; Reg de Dryburgh, 233)
5. p 260. the legend on Sir Alexander's seal attached to a receipt (the
date is not stated) for the fee referred to in 4 (paid up to the king's
death in Sept 1289): "ALEXANDRI FILII COMITIS DE DVNB" (caps used in >>

Thank you for your response.
This doesn't solve the problem.
That there was an Alexander son of the 7th Earl doesn't answer whether making
him a brother of Patric and John is an assumption or whether the document
actually states that.

Without that missing piece we can only say that there was an Alexander son of
the County per his seal, but we cannot say which count this refers to.

Will

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 22:47:10

Typo. I said "son of the County"
Evidently I meant "son of the Count"

Will

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 01 aug 2005 23:01:45

Dear Will,
I have never denied that there is a conflict. I have presented the
statements made by SP (trying to quote as much as possible) and cited
their citations so that you can see if the editors made an error or
assumption.

I do not think that SP or CP is the Holy Grail. If you believe that
that SP is in error and CP is correct, I have presented you with all of
the citations to the references so that you can read SP & CP and their
reference to come to your own conclusions and present them to the
newsgroup.

I read the newsgroup regularly to gain from the new information that is
presented.

I presented SP's line and their viewpoint for the benefit of those who
do not have access to it.

Once again, I do not have the sources cited by SP so I cannot comment
on whether they have made an assumption or an error. I would welcome
comments by those who have access to the sources used by SP or CP.

Let's not turn this into another nasty exchange by negative comments on
why I believe SP rather than CP or my ability to read the postings and
their corrections to CP or SP.

Diane Sheppard

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 aug 2005 23:25:02

In a message dated 8/1/05 2:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< As I stated in my reply, I have not seen the documents. Based on past
expertience, I trust the statements made in SP. I also believe that
when you take everything together that SP is correct. >>

A difficult position to take Dianne. So when someone present you with an
obvious conflict and the reasons why it's a conflict your stance is "SP says its
so so it must be so !"

However you should realize that this group is constantly correcting errors in
sources and SP should not be the Holy Grail of all sources. They are as
fallible as the next. The quotations you listed don't show directly what SP is
claiming, and so all we can say is that SP says it. We cannot say it's a fact.

Since SP was published a lot of new information has come to light.
Will Johnson

Doug McDonald

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 01 aug 2005 23:33:18

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/1/05 2:15:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

As I stated in my reply, I have not seen the documents. Based on past
expertience, I trust the statements made in SP. I also believe that
when you take everything together that SP is correct.

A difficult position to take Dianne. So when someone present you with an
obvious conflict and the reasons why it's a conflict your stance is "SP says its
so so it must be so !"

However you should realize that this group is constantly correcting errors in
sources and SP should not be the Holy Grail of all sources. They are as
fallible as the next. The quotations you listed don't show directly what SP is
claiming, and so all we can say is that SP says it. We cannot say it's a fact.

Since SP was published a lot of new information has come to light.
Will Johnson


Yes, it has ... which is why I originally asked. There is nothing I
could find in the archives. In my experience, when CP and SP duel,
and there is nothing on Chris Philipp's page or in the archives,
it's a tossup.

We seem to be having an argument about weighting of evidence,
without great study something I don't pretend to be able to do.

Doug McDonald

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 02 aug 2005 00:02:20

Dear James,

I agree that the conflict comes from George's letter to Henry IV. See
my reply posted at 1:07 currently # 24) regarding the letter to Henry
IV. In summary, SP believed that George made a mistake regarding his
relationship to Patrick and Margery, just as he made a mistake
regarding the relationship of Agnes and Margery Comyn.

I would love to see the text of the sources cited by SP to see if they
made an assumption, but none of them are immediately available to me or
even in the area. Although CP comes to the conclusion that Alexander
was the son of Patrick and Marjorie (based on George's letter), in
footnote b on page 507, it refers to the discussion in SP in vol 3, on
page 263. They seem to be hedging their bets by implying that one
could reach a different conlusion after reading SP and its arguments.

Diane Sheppard

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 aug 2005 00:05:02

Dear Will, Diane, Doug and others,
It really doesn`t
matter what CP or SP has to say. The Point is that George Dunbar, 10th Earl
of March said He was a descendant of Patrick Dunbar and Marjory Comyn`s
marriage. given the known statements in his letter to King Henry IV of England,
presuming it isn`t a forgery, either his grandfather Sir Alexander Dunbar was
their son or He married their daughter, a first cousin. Those are the only
possibities as Isabel Randolph was the daughter of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl of
Moray of that creation and his wife Isabel, daughter of Sir John Stewart of
Bonkyll. earl Thomas was the son of Thomas Randolph and Lady Isabel Bruce (BXP p
449),
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 aug 2005 01:03:02

In a message dated 8/1/05 3:05:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Those are the only
possibities as Isabel Randolph was the daughter of Thomas Randolph, 1st Earl
of
Moray of that creation and his wife Isabel, daughter of Sir John Stewart of
Bonkyll. earl Thomas was the son of Thomas Randolph and Lady Isabel Bruce
(BXP p 449), >>

Do you mean Isabel was the daughter of the
Sir John Stewart of Bonkil who had for wife Margaret Abernathy
and who were married Oct 1329 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 aug 2005 02:30:02

Dear Diane,
Many of the Scots Clans in that time period had among their
officials, a person whose main duty was to keep track of the various clan
alliances and trace the genealogies of all the branches and who all the wives
were and which children were born to them. Patrick, the 8th Earl died in b 1242-
d 1308 and George his reputed great grandson was born in about 1336, a space
of only 28 years from that Earl`s death. That would be a rather short period
of time for Someone whose principal duty that was to be mistaken about. If
George did not actually descend from Patrick and Marjory, It`s exceedingly likely
that He himself was aware of it and was deliberately decieving King Henry IV.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 aug 2005 02:35:01

Dear Will,
The Sir John Stewart of Bonkyl in question died at Falkirk in
1298 and was apparently married to Margaret, daughter of Alexander Bonkyl of
Bonkyl.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Diane Sheppard

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 02 aug 2005 03:00:08

Dear James,

I agree that within a 28 year time, the clan geneaologist should have
been aware of George's relationship to Marjorie Comyn. However,
George's letter to Henry IV was written on February 18, 1400 (92 years
after the death of the 8th earl). In this period of time, memories
could have been muddied.

I had also thought about the possibility that George had deliberately
deceived Henry about their relationship. According to SP (p. 271) one
of the purposes of the letter was to seek a meeting with Henry IV.
George's relationship with with King Robert III had become strained
because Robert's son, David, duke of Rothesay, had been betrothed to
Goerge's daughter, Elizabeth, and later repudiated her. In the letter,
George complained about David's treatment of Elizabeth. Henry gave a
safe conduct and permission for a meeting in June 1400 and probably met
with George at York. Eventually, George and his whole family moved to
England and George went into the Henry's service in the wars against
the Scots in 1402 (Nisbet Moor & Homildon Hill). In light of the
deterioration of George's relationship with Robert III, it's possible
that George deliberately deceived Henry about their relationship in
order to help obtain a meeting with king.

Since the time of my last posting, I did a World Cat search and found
out that a few of the books that SP referred to are in the collection
of the Detroit Public Library. Unfortunately, I am recovering from a
broken leg and it will be two to four week before I will be able to
attempt the walk from parking to and around the library. I plan to
visit the library as soon as I am able and to copy the pages cited by
SP. At that time, I will let the group know if SP's editors made
assumptions regarding the relationships of the various Dunbars or if
the relationships are stated in the text of the deeds or other
documents cited. Hopefully, these sources will shed better light on the
relationships.

Diane Sheppard

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 03 aug 2005 08:52:25

I was recently browsing Chris Phillips' excellent site and found
this: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sou ... ndex.shtml
It is an essay by Douglas Hickling on Christiana de Mowbray.

In it is mentioned a Scottish John de Mowbray, whose grandmother was a
Comyn, daughter of Sir John Comyn of Badenoch, the Red. Her husband
was Sir Geoffrey of Redcastle in Forfarshire; they had Sir Philip who
married Eve ....; they had Sir John who was also Lord of Tours en Vymeu
and who had three sisters who were his co-heirs after he died fighting
for Edward Balliol at Annan in 1332. The sisters were Philippa (m
Anselm de Guyse), Margaret (m Robert Gower, Knight) and a dau (m David
Merschal), but not Christiana, which is what he was trying to
establish.

Given the ancestry, it would seem likely that this Sir John represents
the other member of the group who petitioned in 1306 on behalf of Sir
Alan de Clavering.

Gjest

Re: Do Patrick and Marjory (Comyn) Dunbar have living descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 aug 2005 23:43:02

Dear Alex,
In interest of clarification the _______ Comyn who married
Geoffrey Mowbray was a daughter of John, the Red Comyn I who according to
Alan Young " Robert the Bruce`s rivals: the Comyns 1212- 1314 died before 1277
(see family tree pp x and xi). He married as You stated Eve and Alice in this
book called a Lindsay, but Douglas Richardson in his recent Magna Carta
Ancestry under Clarell makes a good case for her being a Roos (see MCA pp 201-202)
He indicates see was a daughter of William and Lucy (Fitz peter) de Roos
whose father granted her free warren in Ulceby, Lincoln. She married 2nd about
1277, Sir James Byron and She died testate before 29 April 1286.
Eve was nother of Geoffrey Mowbray`s wife and of John the Black Comyn I who
succeeded his father in Badenoch, Became one of the 13 competitors for the
Scots crown in 1290 but threw his support and urged his son John the Red Comyn II
to do likewise to his brother-in-law John Baliol, whose sister Alianor was
the mother of Red Comyn II.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ginny Wagner

Dunbar, Patrico

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 04 aug 2005 05:16:02

On Dunbar, I was quite surprised that there were two entries in the
index of the Round's French Calendar of Documents ending 1206 for
Dunbar, Patrico.

Page 69:

"Abbey of St. Georges de Bocherville

"[1155-1166] (Cartulary, fo. 63. Trans. 101)

"208. Charter of Henry II addressed generally. The abbot and monks
of St. Georges de Bocherville and their officers are to enjoy the same
quittances as in the days of his grandfather; and its tenants in
England are to have the same freedom from shire [courts] and hundred
[courts] and hidage and all else as in the days of his grandfather and
of William the chamberlain de Tancarvilla when Aveberia and Vestona
were his, and [when] he received them from the king and afterwards
gave them, by his permission, to the abbey.

"Testibus: P[atricio] comite; Manasse[ro] Biset dapifero, et Gaufrido
decano Andegavensi[1]; Magistro Alver[edo]. Apud Clarendonam.

"[fn1] Said to have died or resigned 1162."

and, even more interesting:

p 490:

"Abbey of St. Bertin St. Omer
"[1196] 31 July. (MS> History, from original, sealed. Legend:
"Willelmus deo recore rex scottorum." Cartulaire I. 601. Trans. Vol.
144, "St. Bertin" 24.)

"1351. Charter of William king of Scots [3] addressed generally for
Scotland. He gives to God and the abbey (ecclesie) of St. Mary of
Kinlos, and the monks there serving God, Stradhilifer,[4] according to
its rightful bounds (per rectas divisas) and with all its just
appurtenances, in frankalmoin for ever, in wood and plain, land and
water, meadow and pasture, moor

"[fn3]This charter appears to be wholly unconnected with St. Bertin.
It is also printed in the Historia abbatum de Kynlos (Bannatyne Club),
p. 89, in Stuart's Records of the Monastery of Kinloss, p. 109, etc.
The text in those works has important variations and corrections, ut
infra: --"Morau' ..... Cathen' ..... R. de praebenda ..... Comite
Patric' ....... Morvil ..... Cuming ..... (The Scottish texts omit
wholly, doubtless in error, 'Johanne de Hasting .... Haia.') ......
Apud Elgyn'."

"[fn4] Rectius: "Strathylaf" as in Scottish texts."

page 491

[1196] contd.

"and marsh, pool and mill, and all else justly appertaining to that
land, be held as freely etc. as the said monks or others of the
Cistercian order hold their endowments in his realm.

"Testibus: R[icardo] episcopo Marau; J[ohanne] episcopo de Caten[ia];
R[eginaldo] episcopo Ros[s]ensi; H[ugone] cancellario meo; Ricardo de
praebenda clerico meo; Comitibus patrie (sic); comite Dunee[ano];
comite Gilleberto; Willelmo de Marvilla constabulario; Roberto de
Quinci; Philippo de Valon[iis] camerario; Willelmo filio Fresekini;
Willelmo Cumin; Willelmo de Haia; Johanne de Hasting; Hugone et
Willelmo filiis Willelmi de (sic) Fresekini[1]; D[avide] de Haia;
Rog[erio] de Mortem[er]; Philippo de Lund[ino]; Waltero Murdac;
Herberto Marescallo. Apud Vergin[2] ultimo die Julii.

"[fn1] The MS History reads "de Fresekini,: clearly in error (see p.
490, note 3, for the other names).

"[fn2] Undecipherable in Transcript (and probably in MS History)."

Thus, footnote 1 on page 491 tells us that Comitibus patrie (sic) is
actually, according to footnote 3 on page 490, Comite Patric' and the
index tells us he is Count Patric Dunbar.

Hope you find this of interest. ;-) Ginny

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»