Sir Ric. Lucy Buried at Lenses, Arms

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butlergrt

Sir Ric. Lucy Buried at Lenses, Arms

Legg inn av butlergrt » 28 jul 2005 00:09:26

Good Evening,
As is written "But as advancing years began to press upon him, he turned
from this savage warfare to "deeds of piety" that were to ransom his soul:
and founded two priories in Kent, Westwood and Lenses, taking the habit of
a "
Canon Regular" in the latter only a few months before his death in 1179.
The Battle Abbey Roll vol. II, p.199,para.4. 1889

The ancient Arms of the Lucys(ies), as opposed to the time of Henry and
Elizabeth, were: Vair three lucies haurient ar. crest: Out of a ducal
coronet gu. a boars head erect ar. guttee de poix betw. two wings erect
sa. billette or.
The General Armory of England,Scotland,Ireland and Wales, Burke page 628
De Vere arms: quarterly, gu. and or., in the 1st quarter a mullet ar.
Crest: a boar pass az. bristled and hoofed or.
reference as above, page 1054
Sometimes reading the sheilds often I find give clues to family
affiliations and sometimes just connectedness.
As far as Richards daughter, Rohaise that married Fulbert de Dover, Lord
of Chilham in Kent, it is logical as the Lucy family held the office of
Castle Guard at Dover for 7 knights fees, lying in the counties of Kent,
Norfolk and Suffolk. Battle Abbey Roll, 1889, p. 198.
Richard also held considerable possessions in Normandy as he was known as
Richard de Lucy, Lord of Gouviz and Baron of Cretot in Normandy, as is
mentioned in the MSS of the Cotton Libr. Tib. D.II., among the nobility of
France. The accents are missing in my spelling of Gouviz and Cretot as I
do not know how to put the bloody things in with this computer. Maybe this
will add to somones info.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Ric. Lucy Buried at Lenses, Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 28 jul 2005 00:30:24

In message of 28 Jul, "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com> wrote:

Good Evening,
As is written "But as advancing years began to press upon him, he
turned from this savage warfare to "deeds of piety" that were to
ransom his soul: and founded two priories in Kent, Westwood and
Lenses, taking the habit of a " Canon Regular" in the latter only a
few months before his death in 1179. The Battle Abbey Roll vol. II,
p.199,para.4. 1889

The ancient Arms of the Lucys(ies), as opposed to the time of Henry
and Elizabeth, were: Vair three lucies haurient ar. crest: Out of a
ducal coronet gu. a boars head erect ar. guttee de poix betw. two
wings erect sa. billette or.

The General Armory of England,Scotland,Ireland and Wales, Burke page
628 De Vere arms: quarterly, gu. and or., in the 1st quarter a mullet
ar. Crest: a boar pass az. bristled and hoofed or.

reference as above, page 1054
Sometimes reading the sheilds often I find give clues to family
affiliations and sometimes just connectedness.

Heraldry, in the sense of unique graphic identifiers was only invented
around 1130-1150. The trouble with very early heraldry is that each
generation tended to have slightly different arms. I would caution
against using Burke as a reference on such matters, there is no sign of
any serious research done into ancient docuemnts for his General Armory,
it is just a collection of whatever he could lay his hands on.

There is a Medieval Ordinary of Arms in preparation, the first two
volumes have been published but the the last two will not be for two to
four years yet. So regrettably I can give no opinion on what arms may
have been used by Richard Lucy or by any Vere of that period as volume
II ends with C for chevron and is a mile away from L for Lucy.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

butlergrt

Re: Sir Ric. Lucy Buried at Lenses, Arms:Re:

Legg inn av butlergrt » 28 jul 2005 01:01:45

Good Evening Tim,
I most whole heartedly agree, I use them as more of a general road map,
more for clues than anything, like looking for a church at the corner
where one is to turn, not identifying which demoniation it is.
As far as Burkes is concerned? Well,I trust it little other than a
"potential" road map with many errors. I prefer to follow the deeds of
lands which is far more intriguing, in fact if I didn't know better, some
of these marriages were planned out generations in advance.
Tho on a counter note, The arms of the Botelers of Ireland, at least in
the early days were fairly accurate as far as lineal descent was
concerned, I have a copy of them thru about the 16th century and from that
century!, and if memory serves me right, tho I often wonder at times, it
seems to me during the 16th century in France at the tournements, the King
required all contestants to have their lineages on their shields, but as
some were so intricate they had banners that their esquires had to hold up
as there were 100-200 quarterings. You are correct in as far as trusting
to Burkes armory.
Best Regards and have a Good Evening,
Emmett L. Butler

Dolly Ziegler

Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Dolly Ziegler » 28 jul 2005 02:09:01

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

There is a Medieval Ordinary of Arms in preparation, the first two
volumes have been published but the the last two will not be for two to
four years yet.

Tim, please tell me (us) more. Cheers, Dolly

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 28 jul 2005 09:35:46

In message of 28 Jul, dsz@bcpl.net (Dolly Ziegler) wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

There is a Medieval Ordinary of Arms in preparation, the first two
volumes have been published but the the last two will not be for two to
four years yet.

Tim, please tell me (us) more. Cheers, Dolly

This is a project started with a legacy in 1926 to the London Society of
Antiquaries by Lt-Col Croft Lyons of £15,000 to do a revised version of
Papworth's Ordinary of Arms. An ordinary of arms lists the arms in the
order of their descriptions, known as blazons. The project was slow to
get under way but has been achieved by many Compilers across the
country making notes of every medieval coat of arms that they come
across, what the blazons were, where the record was found (which dates
them) and who bore those arms. The editors then order and classify
these slips and make them into a book. In 1979 it was started to be
put on a computerised database.

As already said, an ordinary lists the arms in the order of their
description, by and large starting with the principal charge
(decorative item) in the coat of arms. Anchor is the first in the
list, then annulet then anvil. Volume I goes from, in fact, Uncharged
then Anchor and through to "Bend in Tressure". Volume II goes from "On
1 bend" through to "Chevronny unnumbered".

Volume III I hear is planned to be ready for delivery in 2008 and Volume
IV, the last, a year or so after that.

Each volume includes an index of the holders of the arms to the blazons.

The lead editor for each volume has always been a senior Herald of the
College of Arms, with Thomas Woodcock, Somerset herald and now
Norroy and Ulster king of Arms, involved in both the first two volumes.
I do not know who is leading the third volume.

One of the major problems of this project must have been that of
raising the money to cover the costs, the original sum now being
hopelessly inadequate.

And your nearest friendly Good Library will, of course, have copies of
Volumes I and II - or it is not a Good Library.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 28 jul 2005 16:53:39

In message of 28 Jul, ginnywagner@austin.rr.com ("Ginny Wagner") wrote:

And your nearest friendly Good Library will, of course, have copies of
Volumes I and II -

Thank you for this information, Tim. Is the title actually Medieval
Ordinary of Arms, Volume I and Volume II? What would I use in an
interlibrary lookup? Thanks in advance. ;-) Ginny


"Dictionary of British Arms
"Medieval Ordinary
"Volume One" and "Volume Two"

ISBN 0-85431-258-7 and 0-85431-268-4

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Ginny Wagner

RE: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 28 jul 2005 17:29:01

<And your nearest friendly Good Library will, of course, have copies of
Volumes I and II ->

Thank you for this information, Tim. Is the title actually Medieval
Ordinary of Arms, Volume I and Volume II? What would I use in an
interlibrary lookup? Thanks in advance. ;-) Ginny

Ginny Wagner

RE: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 28 jul 2005 19:26:02

<"Dictionary of British Arms
"Medieval Ordinary
"Volume One" and "Volume Two"

ISBN 0-85431-258-7 and 0-85431-268-4 >


Thank you, Tim. ;-) Ginny

Gordon Banks

RE: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 28 jul 2005 21:45:02

I found this in AbeBooks:

T. Woodcock. Dictionary of British Arms. Medieval Ordinary vols. 1 & 2.

They are about $90 each from this source.

None of my friendly libraries have these.


On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:27 -0500, Ginny Wagner wrote:
And your nearest friendly Good Library will, of course, have copies of
Volumes I and II -

Thank you for this information, Tim. Is the title actually Medieval
Ordinary of Arms, Volume I and Volume II? What would I use in an
interlibrary lookup? Thanks in advance. ;-) Ginny
--

Gordon Banks <geb@gordonbanks.com>

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