William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the register

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paul bulkley

William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the register

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 27 jul 2005 19:38:01

Boyd Page 94 describes a number of events and
activities pertinent to William Fitz Osbern, Seigneur
de Breteuil, and Earl of Hereford which suggest that
he was a remarkably active individual:

1066: Major figure in the Conquest, and intimate
friend of William the Conqueror.
1067: Joint viceroy during William Conqueror's absense
abroad. Osbern defended English border against the
Welsh. Whilst Earl of Hereford overthrew Maredudd ab
Owen (a Prince of S.Wales)

1070: William Conqueror assigned Osbern the task of
searching monasteries and confiscating treasures.
Eadric "The Wild" successfully rebelled against him.
Osbern's wife Adelise de Toni (daughter of Roger de
Toni) died October 5th. Osbern then married Richilde
daughter/heir of Count of Egisheim in Alsace.

1070/1071: Baldwin Count of Flanders made Osbern
guardian of son Arnulf. The Count's widow Richilde
offered Osbern her hand if he would come to her aid.
February 1071 Osbern went to her aid, and was slain at
battle of Flanders (or Cassel), and was buried in
Abbey of Cormeilles.

Boyd's claims seem rather incredible and need some
clarification. It would appear difficult to envisage
William Fitz Osbern undertaking so many things in
France and England in a very short period of time.
Boyd does not advise the thoughts of the newly wed
Richilde confronted with her gallant husband charging
off immediately to win the hand of another fair
Richilde?

There were other deeds. Reference to website "The Isle
of Wight", and specifically "Lords of the Isle of
Wight"

1067/1070: William Fitz Osbern founded Carisbrooke
Priory after being granted the title of Lord of the
Isle of Wight by William the Conqueror, who described
Osberne as his "kinsman"

1070/1100: Roger de Breteuil Earl of Hereford (William
Osbern's son) became the next Lord of the Isle of
Wight. However that right was withdrawn subsequent to
his rebellion. Richard de Reviers (who died 1107) was
granted the title of Lord of the Isle of Wight by
Henry Ist.

The question arises why did Henry Ist grant the title
to Richard de Reviers?

A probable explanation is that William de Vernon
married Emma Fitz Osberne (she was the daughter of
Osborn the Seneschal. He was murdered whilst guardian
of William the Conqueror) They had a son named Richard
de Reviers (Seigneur de Reviers, Vernon, and Nehou)

If the above explanation has merit, the title of Lord
of the Isle of Wight remained "within the family"

Last October 2004, Chris Phillips quoted the Register
of Carisbrooke, and questioned the meaning of " that
Richard de Reviers was NEPOS of William Fitz Osbern"
It would appear that NEPOS in this instance meant
NEPHEW.

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley

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Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the regi

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 27 jul 2005 21:44:56

paul bulkley wrote:
Boyd Page 94 describes a number of events and
activities pertinent to William Fitz Osbern, Seigneur
de Breteuil, and Earl of Hereford which suggest that
he was a remarkably active individual:

1066: Major figure in the Conquest, and intimate
friend of William the Conqueror.
1067: Joint viceroy during William Conqueror's absense
abroad. Osbern defended English border against the
Welsh. Whilst Earl of Hereford overthrew Maredudd ab
Owen (a Prince of S.Wales)

This is unclear. By Osbern, here and below, is William Fitz Osbern
intended? If so, then he should not be called by his father's given
name (which was not a surname).

1070: William Conqueror assigned Osbern the task of
searching monasteries and confiscating treasures.
Eadric "The Wild" successfully rebelled against him.
Osbern's wife Adelise de Toni (daughter of Roger de
Toni) died October 5th. Osbern then married Richilde
daughter/heir of Count of Egisheim in Alsace.

No such daughter and heiress existed at this time.

1070/1071: Baldwin Count of Flanders made Osbern
guardian of son Arnulf. The Count's widow Richilde
offered Osbern her hand if he would come to her aid.
February 1071 Osbern went to her aid, and was slain at
battle of Flanders (or Cassel), and was buried in
Abbey of Cormeilles.

Boyd's claims seem rather incredible and need some
clarification. It would appear difficult to envisage
William Fitz Osbern undertaking so many things in
France and England in a very short period of time.
Boyd does not advise the thoughts of the newly wed
Richilde confronted with her gallant husband charging
off immediately to win the hand of another fair
Richilde?

One possibility is that these represent two versions of the same thing -
that a source is making Richilde, widow of Baldwin (whose actual
parentage is not known) the daughter and heiress of the Count of Egisheim.

There were other deeds. Reference to website "The Isle
of Wight", and specifically "Lords of the Isle of
Wight"

1067/1070: William Fitz Osbern founded Carisbrooke
Priory after being granted the title of Lord of the
Isle of Wight by William the Conqueror, who described
Osberne as his "kinsman"

1070/1100: Roger de Breteuil Earl of Hereford (William
Osbern's son) became the next Lord of the Isle of
Wight. However that right was withdrawn subsequent to
his rebellion. Richard de Reviers (who died 1107) was
granted the title of Lord of the Isle of Wight by
Henry Ist.

The question arises why did Henry Ist grant the title
to Richard de Reviers?

There are other examples where, following one rebellion or another,
Henry shifted lands around among the Beaumonts, Montgomerys, Warennes,
etc. - the large kin-group represented by the descendants of Gunnor, to
which both Redvers/Vernon and Breteuil also belonged. Nothing more need
be speculated.

A probable explanation is that William de Vernon
married Emma Fitz Osberne (she was the daughter of
Osborn the Seneschal. He was murdered whilst guardian
of William the Conqueror) They had a son named Richard
de Reviers (Seigneur de Reviers, Vernon, and Nehou)

Too bad there is no evidence that this was the case.

There was no Redvers descent from the documented marriage of William de
Vernon and Emma (family unknown). This is an error of old standing,
wherein Hugh, father of the William who married Emma and contemporary
(Hugh that is) of the Baldwin and Richard de Redvers/Vernon was
mistakenly made son of William and Emma instead (making William his own
grandpa). The Redvers brothers were, at best, uncles-in-law of Emma.
As to Emma being daughter of Osborn, that is based on her being mother
of Richard, which was not the case.

If the above explanation has merit, the title of Lord
of the Isle of Wight remained "within the family"

It remained within the Gunnorid kinship anyhow, even though the above
doesn't have merit.

Last October 2004, Chris Phillips quoted the Register
of Carisbrooke, and questioned the meaning of " that
Richard de Reviers was NEPOS of William Fitz Osbern"
It would appear that NEPOS in this instance meant
NEPHEW.

This is begging the question. After all, you do not have separate facts
here - that Richard is called "nepos", and that William de Vernon
married Emma Fitz Osbern, having Richard. Richard de Vernon/Redvers was
made to be son of William and Emma because Richard was a contemporary
and possible brother of Hugh de Vernon, and Hugh was mistakenly thought
to be son of William de Vernon and Emma. Emma was then made to be a
Fitz Osbern specifically BECAUSE Richard is called William Fitz O's
nepos, and nepos usually (but not always) meant nephew or grandson (and
chronologically, nephew is the more likely). Thus, Emma (wrongly) being
Richard's mother must have been William's sister.

The circular logic runs: Richard is called nepos, and nepos can mean
nephew, so let's concoct a pedigree that makes Richard nephew of William
Fitz Osbern. OK, now we have a pedigree where Richard is nephew of
William, and Richard is called nepos, so nepos must mean nephew.

Nepos can also mean YOUNGER MALE KINSMAN. As, even without such a
marriage, Richard is known to have been a younger male kinsman of
William Fitz Osbern via their shared Gunnorid kinship, there is no
reason to hypothesize that Richard's mother (whatever her name was, but
not the Emma who married his possible nephew) was a sister of William
Fitz O. No conclusion on the precise meaning of nepos in this case can
be reached.

taf

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