Gateway Ancestors Inc - Belvoir less confused

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Leo van de Pas

Gateway Ancestors Inc - Belvoir less confused

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 22 jul 2005 15:39:01

Earlier I sent a message _Belvoir confusion_ only Adrian Channing in England replied on line. One person replied saying he could not send his message to gen-med (with an explanation).

But with the information I received I think some details can be combined. The Robert 1 and 2 appear to be one person.

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
(1) Robert de Todeni married to an Adela and died in 1088 and had William, Berenger, Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes married to Hubert de Rye

This kind person got hold of Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants and found:
Robert de Tosny of Belvoir married to Adelais who was the mother of his sons William and Geoffrey. Adelais predeceased Robert. Both were dead by 1093.
Robert also had the following children (whether also by Adelais or another wife DD doesn't specify)
1.Berenger (eldest son) (no issue)
2.Albreda (eldest daughter) married Robert de Insula (no issue)
Adelicia (middle daughter) married Roger Bigod, they had Cecilia wife of William de Albini Brito (died c.1148), William, Humphrey , Gunnor and Matilda
3.Agnes (youngest daughter) married first to Ralph de Beaufour, secondly to Hubert de Rye

If we combine the information from Burke's and DD it looks like Adela/Adelais was the mother of all the children.

I have also a book "The Domesday Book" England's Heritage, Then and Now, edited by Thomas Hinde. In this book is a list of the major land holders. Here we find Berenger de Tosny as a second son of Robert as well as Robert himself. Also Ralph de Tosny (of that other family) is mentioned.
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If we return to Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
Something still is not correct. Robert de Tosny is the father of William de Albini, Brito, Lord of Belvoir who is dead about 1155 and married to Maud de St.Liz de Clare.

This William de Albini Brito should also be an uncle of Cecilia Bigod who according to DD is married to a William de Albini Brito. But then he has a son also William de Albini Brito who had a first wife Adelisa, was Cecilia Bigod his second wife? This William died in the 14th year of Henry II (1168?) (I have as yet not digested the information from Adrian Channing)

This son William Brito is the father of the Magna Carta Surety also named William de Albini, Lord of Belvoir.
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According to Weis The Magna Charta Sureties, this third William Daubigny/de Albini was born after 1146 succeeded 1167/8 as Lord of Belvoir, which tallies with Burke's Extinct Peerage. He married (1) Margery de Umfreville (2) Agatha Trussebut
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Is anyone able to place this all on a more secure footing? This family is important and interesting as, no doubt, they are ancestors of Prince William of Wales as well as of
on Gen-Med
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Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Gateway Ancestors Inc - Belvoir less confused

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 22 jul 2005 15:50:58

In message of 22 Jul, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

Earlier I sent a message _Belvoir confusion_ only Adrian Channing in
England replied on line. One person replied saying he could not send
his message to gen-med (with an explanation).

<snip>

There is also the interesting Prosopon 9 article by Katherine
Keats-Rohan at: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/prosopon/prosopon9.htm

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gateway Ancestors Inc - Belvoir less confused

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 22 jul 2005 15:58:36

Leo van de Pas wrote:
Earlier I sent a message _Belvoir confusion_ only Adrian Channing in England replied on line. One person replied saying he could not send his message to gen-med (with an explanation).

If we return to Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
Something still is not correct. Robert de Tosny is the father of William de Albini, Brito, Lord of Belvoir who is dead about 1155 and married to Maud de St.Liz de Clare.


Burke's is wrong (not surprising as 150 years of scholarship have passed
since): Robert de T is not father of William de Albini Brito, but rather
grandfather-in-law. Just set aside the account in Burke's for this
early generation and go with what Adrian Channing posted.

taf

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors Inc - Belvoir less confused

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jul 2005 20:55:01

In a message dated 7/22/05 6:38:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< This William de Albini Brito should also be an uncle of Cecilia Bigod who
according to DD is married to a William de Albini Brito. But then he has a son
also William de Albini Brito who had a first wife Adelisa, was Cecilia Bigod
his second wife? This William died in the 14th year of Henry II (1168?) (I
have as yet not digested the information from Adrian Channing)

This son William Brito is the father of the Magna Carta Surety also named
William de Albini, Lord of Belvoir. >>

Leo this could be the same type of confusion we've seen before where people
are given surnames and properties in direct male line by assumption, when
really the property passed through the female line and the new lord took on the
surname, etc.

So if you consider the possibility that Belvoir passed through Cecily Bigod,
daughter of Alice "Dame of Belvoir" that perhaps William "Brito" may be placed
in the wrong position here. That could explain the confusion perhaps. If
you simply discard his parents as wrongly placed.

We need to examine the primary evidence that supports this.
Will Johnson

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