Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Leo van de Pas

Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 22 jul 2005 05:15:01

There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that one, I hope) and one in England.

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160

(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land in Lincoln upon the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a stately castle and from the fair view it commanded, gave it the designation of Belvoir Castle. He married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and took the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were Berenger, Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.

If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705

On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088 .

One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he founded something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no wife mentioned) two children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or children) and Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is mentioned in 1136, married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.

The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a monk in Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had one son Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.

And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three dying in 1088.

Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could think that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in England and (2) Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France, but this Guillaume's sister married into England I wonder what is going on. Can anyone say these three Roberts are really one or two people?

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jul 2005 14:15:01

Leo,

I believe that it has been mentioned before that there has been some
confusion between various Tosny families.

Keats-Rohan's DD page 43 gives a genealogy tree of the Belvoir (pronounced
Beaver) Tosny's as:

Robert de Tosny d c 1095 m Adelais and left:

1) Berenger dsp a. 1115, m. Albreda
2) William dsp
3) Geoffrey dsp
4) Albreda dsp m Robert de Insula fl. 1118
5) Adelaise d , 1136 m Roger Bigod d 1107
6) Agnes d.p. 1129 m.(1) Ralph I de Beaufour; m(2) Hubert de Ryes

Adelais and Roger left

a) William d 1120
b) Humphrey clerk d c 1120
c) Hugh earl of Norfolk d 1177
d) Gunnor m(1) Robert fitz Swein m(2) Haimo de St Clair
e) Matilda d c 1129 m William de Albini Pincerna
f) Cecilia heiress of Belvoir m William de Albini Brito

The last left

i) William II de Albini Brito
ii) Roger Bigod
iii) Robert de Tosny
iv) Ralph de Albini Brito
v) Matilda
vi) Basilia

regards,
Adrian


In a message dated 22/07/2005 04:14:54 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that one,
I hope) and one in England.

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160

(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most
distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land in Lincoln upon
the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a stately castle and
from the fair view it commanded, gave it the designation of Belvoir Castle. He
married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and took
the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were Berenger,
Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.

If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705

On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088 .

One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he founded
something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no wife mentioned) two
children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or children) and
Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is mentioned in 1136,
married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.

The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a monk in
Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had one son
Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.

And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three dying
in 1088.

Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could think
that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in England and (2)
Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France, but this Guillaume's
sister married into England I wonder what is going on. Can anyone say these
three Roberts are really one or two people?

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

James C. Woodard

Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Legg inn av James C. Woodard » 22 jul 2005 18:17:45

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote in news:c4.2bd8b9f1.30123cf4@aol.com:

Leo,

I believe that it has been mentioned before that there has been some
confusion between various Tosny families.

Keats-Rohan's DD page 43 gives a genealogy tree of the Belvoir
(pronounced Beaver) Tosny's as:

Robert de Tosny d c 1095 m Adelais and left:

1) Berenger dsp a. 1115, m. Albreda
2) William dsp
3) Geoffrey dsp
4) Albreda dsp m Robert de Insula fl. 1118
5) Adelaise d , 1136 m Roger Bigod d 1107
6) Agnes d.p. 1129 m.(1) Ralph I de Beaufour; m(2) Hubert de Ryes

Adelais and Roger left

a) William d 1120
b) Humphrey clerk d c 1120
c) Hugh earl of Norfolk d 1177
d) Gunnor m(1) Robert fitz Swein m(2) Haimo de St Clair
e) Matilda d c 1129 m William de Albini Pincerna
f) Cecilia heiress of Belvoir m William de Albini Brito

The last left

i) William II de Albini Brito
ii) Roger Bigod
iii) Robert de Tosny
iv) Ralph de Albini Brito
v) Matilda
vi) Basilia

regards,
Adrian


In a message dated 22/07/2005 04:14:54 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that
one, I hope) and one in England.

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160

(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most
distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land
in Lincoln upon the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a
stately castle and from the fair view it commanded, gave it the
designation of Belvoir Castle. He married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and
took the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were
Berenger, Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.

If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705

On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088
.

One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he
founded something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no
wife mentioned) two children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or
children) and Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is
mentioned in 1136, married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents
of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.

The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a
monk in Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had
one son Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.

And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three
dying in 1088.

Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could
think that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in
England and (2) Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France,
but this Guillaume's sister married into England I wonder what is going
on. Can anyone say these three Roberts are really one or two people?

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny Earls
of Arundel?



--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 22 jul 2005 19:41:09

James C. Woodard wrote:
Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny Earls
of Arundel?

None. They derived from two entirely distinct places with similar
sounding names.

taf

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 23 jul 2005 01:59:33

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in
news:42e13dc5@news.ColoState.EDU:

James C. Woodard wrote:

Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny
Earls of Arundel?

None. They derived from two entirely distinct places with similar
sounding names.

taf


Thanks, Todd. I was beginning to think I was incredibly stupid for not
finding it.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»