There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that one, I hope) and one in England.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land in Lincoln upon the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a stately castle and from the fair view it commanded, gave it the designation of Belvoir Castle. He married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and took the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were Berenger, Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.
If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705
On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088 .
One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he founded something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no wife mentioned) two children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or children) and Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is mentioned in 1136, married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.
The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a monk in Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had one son Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.
And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three dying in 1088.
Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could think that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in England and (2) Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France, but this Guillaume's sister married into England I wonder what is going on. Can anyone say these three Roberts are really one or two people?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages
Leo,
I believe that it has been mentioned before that there has been some
confusion between various Tosny families.
Keats-Rohan's DD page 43 gives a genealogy tree of the Belvoir (pronounced
Beaver) Tosny's as:
Robert de Tosny d c 1095 m Adelais and left:
1) Berenger dsp a. 1115, m. Albreda
2) William dsp
3) Geoffrey dsp
4) Albreda dsp m Robert de Insula fl. 1118
5) Adelaise d , 1136 m Roger Bigod d 1107
6) Agnes d.p. 1129 m.(1) Ralph I de Beaufour; m(2) Hubert de Ryes
Adelais and Roger left
a) William d 1120
b) Humphrey clerk d c 1120
c) Hugh earl of Norfolk d 1177
d) Gunnor m(1) Robert fitz Swein m(2) Haimo de St Clair
e) Matilda d c 1129 m William de Albini Pincerna
f) Cecilia heiress of Belvoir m William de Albini Brito
The last left
i) William II de Albini Brito
ii) Roger Bigod
iii) Robert de Tosny
iv) Ralph de Albini Brito
v) Matilda
vi) Basilia
regards,
Adrian
In a message dated 22/07/2005 04:14:54 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that one,
I hope) and one in England.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most
distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land in Lincoln upon
the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a stately castle and
from the fair view it commanded, gave it the designation of Belvoir Castle. He
married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and took
the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were Berenger,
Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.
If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705
On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088 .
One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he founded
something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no wife mentioned) two
children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or children) and
Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is mentioned in 1136,
married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.
The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a monk in
Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had one son
Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.
And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three dying
in 1088.
Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could think
that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in England and (2)
Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France, but this Guillaume's
sister married into England I wonder what is going on. Can anyone say these
three Roberts are really one or two people?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
I believe that it has been mentioned before that there has been some
confusion between various Tosny families.
Keats-Rohan's DD page 43 gives a genealogy tree of the Belvoir (pronounced
Beaver) Tosny's as:
Robert de Tosny d c 1095 m Adelais and left:
1) Berenger dsp a. 1115, m. Albreda
2) William dsp
3) Geoffrey dsp
4) Albreda dsp m Robert de Insula fl. 1118
5) Adelaise d , 1136 m Roger Bigod d 1107
6) Agnes d.p. 1129 m.(1) Ralph I de Beaufour; m(2) Hubert de Ryes
Adelais and Roger left
a) William d 1120
b) Humphrey clerk d c 1120
c) Hugh earl of Norfolk d 1177
d) Gunnor m(1) Robert fitz Swein m(2) Haimo de St Clair
e) Matilda d c 1129 m William de Albini Pincerna
f) Cecilia heiress of Belvoir m William de Albini Brito
The last left
i) William II de Albini Brito
ii) Roger Bigod
iii) Robert de Tosny
iv) Ralph de Albini Brito
v) Matilda
vi) Basilia
regards,
Adrian
In a message dated 22/07/2005 04:14:54 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that one,
I hope) and one in England.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most
distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land in Lincoln upon
the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a stately castle and
from the fair view it commanded, gave it the designation of Belvoir Castle. He
married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and took
the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were Berenger,
Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.
If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705
On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088 .
One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he founded
something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no wife mentioned) two
children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or children) and
Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is mentioned in 1136,
married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.
The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a monk in
Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had one son
Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.
And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three dying
in 1088.
Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could think
that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in England and (2)
Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France, but this Guillaume's
sister married into England I wonder what is going on. Can anyone say these
three Roberts are really one or two people?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
James C. Woodard
Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote in news:c4.2bd8b9f1.30123cf4@aol.com:
Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny Earls
of Arundel?
--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net
Leo,
I believe that it has been mentioned before that there has been some
confusion between various Tosny families.
Keats-Rohan's DD page 43 gives a genealogy tree of the Belvoir
(pronounced Beaver) Tosny's as:
Robert de Tosny d c 1095 m Adelais and left:
1) Berenger dsp a. 1115, m. Albreda
2) William dsp
3) Geoffrey dsp
4) Albreda dsp m Robert de Insula fl. 1118
5) Adelaise d , 1136 m Roger Bigod d 1107
6) Agnes d.p. 1129 m.(1) Ralph I de Beaufour; m(2) Hubert de Ryes
Adelais and Roger left
a) William d 1120
b) Humphrey clerk d c 1120
c) Hugh earl of Norfolk d 1177
d) Gunnor m(1) Robert fitz Swein m(2) Haimo de St Clair
e) Matilda d c 1129 m William de Albini Pincerna
f) Cecilia heiress of Belvoir m William de Albini Brito
The last left
i) William II de Albini Brito
ii) Roger Bigod
iii) Robert de Tosny
iv) Ralph de Albini Brito
v) Matilda
vi) Basilia
regards,
Adrian
In a message dated 22/07/2005 04:14:54 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
There seem to have been two Belvoirs, one in France (forget about that
one, I hope) and one in England.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 160
(1)Robert de Todeni, a nobleman from Normandy 'amongst the most
distinguished companions in arms of the Conqueror.' He was granted land
in Lincoln upon the borders of Leicestershire. Here de Todeni erected a
stately castle and from the fair view it commanded, gave it the
designation of Belvoir Castle. He married an Adela and died in 1088.
As children are given William who is known as 'the Briton' (Brito) and
took the surname de Albini, also Lord of Belvoir, then there were
Berenger, Geoffrey, Robert and Agnes who married Hubert de Rye.
If we go to Europaische Stammtafeln Volume III/4 Tafel 705
On the one page we find two Robert de Tosny (almost) both dying in 1088
.
One is a (2) Robert de Tosny, Seigneur (?) de Belvoir in 1063 he
founded something (what) in Marmoutier. He died in 1088 and had (no
wife mentioned) two children,
Guillaume, Seigneur de Belvoir who died about 1130 (no wife or
children) and Alice who about 1130 becomes Dame (!) de Belvoir, is
mentioned in 1136, married Roger Bigod and this couple are the parents
of Hugh, 1st Earl of Norfolk.
The other is (3) Robert de Stafford or de Tosny, Lord of Stafford, a
monk in Evesham Abbey, died in (1088) married (Avice de Clare) and had
one son Nicholas de Stafford.
This Robert belongs to the de Tosny/de Conches family.
And so we have three Roberts de Todeni/Tosny/de Stafford. All three
dying in 1088.
Two have a son William/Guillaume known as Lord of Belvoir. You could
think that (1) Robert's son William de Albini was Lord of Belvoir in
England and (2) Robert's son Guillaume was Lord of Belvoir in France,
but this Guillaume's sister married into England I wonder what is going
on. Can anyone say these three Roberts are really one or two people?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny Earls
of Arundel?
--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages
James C. Woodard wrote:
None. They derived from two entirely distinct places with similar
sounding names.
taf
Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny Earls
of Arundel?
None. They derived from two entirely distinct places with similar
sounding names.
taf
-
Séimí mac Liam
Re: Belvoir confusion - came from John Throckmorton messages
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in
news:42e13dc5@news.ColoState.EDU:
Thanks, Todd. I was beginning to think I was incredibly stupid for not
finding it.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
news:42e13dc5@news.ColoState.EDU:
James C. Woodard wrote:
Is there any known relationship between this family and the D'aubigny
Earls of Arundel?
None. They derived from two entirely distinct places with similar
sounding names.
taf
Thanks, Todd. I was beginning to think I was incredibly stupid for not
finding it.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99