Being civil and cordial

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Hans Vogels

Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Hans Vogels » 20 jul 2005 21:22:20

Dear Douglas,

Firstly for the record for some technical reason probably I'm not able
to respond to your reaction on my lines to John Brandon. So therefore
a new string.

Secondly I finaly seem to have struck a nerve. I have remarked in the
past on the silly discussions between you and Leo and between you and
Peter Stewart. You never seemed bothered with my remarks. Why now?
Maybe because I voiced them a bit harder?

My further remarks are placed between your lines.

Datum:2005-07-19 13:58:36 PST

Dear Hans

Contrary to your observations, I've carried on a private correspondence
with thousands of people throughout the world over 40 plus years. My
private correspondence has been entirely cordial and civil. As such, I
believe I'm quite capable of being civil, cordial, and collegial to all
people. Thank you.

I too have years of correspondence with fellow researchers, 31 years
to recall (I started young) It is still civil and cordial, in writing,
and in the newsgroup I frequently visit. That is something that I can
not say of you in the last 2 1/2 years. Were and why did you go wrong?
I do not question your conduct in private. I comment only on your for
everyone on the newsgroup visible reactions.

I do draw the line when people lie, distort, misrepresent, steal other
people's work, and construe facts out of their context.

That maybe true in your view to justify yourself. But you do it
anyway. You think to much on what you think is written between the
lines. You react to quickly when you should wait a day or so. Things
might not be as they seem to be at first hand. Many a times you have
been asked to provide an answer. Still you dodge, evade and start
stepping on other ones toes. It starts to look like a pattern. But on
the other hand I do not want to justify the way Peter Stewart reacts
to your posts/answers. But in all that writing he does he has kept a
constant critical and professional view to anything and anyone that
comes his way on subjects that he knows something on.

I also don't care much for drama queens.

You are making quite a show of yourselve and not all is favourable. So
do not blame the kettle that it is black. The "Gordon Hale"-method of
countering of Peter Stewart is energy consuming. Better would be if he
kept it short and businesslike. That way you would not be inclined to
take things personal. Once something is known or twisted out of
context is can be used against you. Some people with nothing else to
do live on the prospect of goading someone to reaction. Stick to the
facts and avoid bringing opninions as facts. Face the fact that there
are always people around that know more on a subject then you.
Painting them black does not win an argument based on facts and logic.

Speaking of misrepresentations,

I have voiced my opinion formed by myselve on my observations of the
past period. You can like it or not. It does not change it one bit.
You do not know me but undoubtly have formed one based on my writings.

you have made one yourself. You have alleged in your post that my two books
were written for Americans.

It was the remark "Americans" and it was used as a pun. John Brandon
was painting a black and white (them and us) situation. As I am a
British born Dutchman I naturaly belong to the wrong side :-) More
humor and selfmockery would do a world of good on this Newsgroup. By
the way the quote can be read in the following substract.

Van:John Brandon (starbuck95@hotmail.com)
Onderwerp:Re: OT Time to stand back? Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne
de Sabran [NB: contains genealogical discussion]

View this article only
Discussies:soc.genealogy.medieval
Datum:2005-07-18 12:36:54 PST

The problem is Peter Stewart, Leo van de Pas, and Tim Powys-Lybbe
Yep, the non-Americans. Most of the Americans realize (or are

beginning to realize, I think) that they owe you a debt of gratitude
for your good work on the new lines in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ and
_MCA_.

This is not true.

Of course I'm aware of this fact. I'm not daft, I have been around for
2 1/2 years. I have seen the advertisments, the postponements, the
praises, the reviews and the order correspondence.

Rather, I wrote my books to be reference works for the entire English
speaking world.

No problem with that. We all want our products making a difference and
enhancing the known knowledge.

As a testimony that I have succeeded in my objective, people from all over
the world have purchased my books. I'm grateful indeed for the interest and
support of my customers throughout the world have shown me.

The remarks I made to John Brandon have nothing to do with your books.
I have not seen them so I can not comment on them. A few years back I
once enquired with you privately on the genealogical material of the
ancestry of Geoffrey Plantagenet, count of Anjou. I never received an
answer but later on it became clear to me that the book starts with
Geoffrey.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Hans Vogels wrote:
John,

I have to second the opinion of CED. He makes sense without having to
twist anything. Douglas Richardson should make an effort of learning
of his mistakes, not making them over and over. He should start
providing answers and not trying to counterattack with silly nonsense.
Read the files. I have been around for 2 1/2 years now and Douglas
could write a book on the answers that he could not, does not, will
not, can not give.

Writing a very bulky book for "Americans" does not skill him in
getting along with fellow researchers. At least not with skilled
researchers who know their facts and literature.

Back to CED. His logic approach does not go away with your ironic
remarks. Lot's of listers are fed up with Richardsons way of acting
that he can get along with his way of behaving. And I am one of them.
It is time that a decent wind starts blowing on this newsgroup.

Hans Vogels

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<1121710717.006029.50580@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
All of us, at some time, must face our nemesis. Yours has arrived!

Speaking of megalomania ... ;-)

solitaire

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av solitaire » 20 jul 2005 22:20:13

Hans Vogels wrote:
Dear Douglas,

Firstly for the record for some technical reason probably I'm not able
to respond to your reaction on my lines to John Brandon. So therefore
a new string.

Secondly I finaly seem to have struck a nerve. I have remarked in the
past on the silly discussions between you and Leo and between you and
Peter Stewart. You never seemed bothered with my remarks. Why now?
Maybe because I voiced them a bit harder?

My further remarks are placed between your lines.

Take this crap to email.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 20 jul 2005 22:26:56

Solitaire wrote:

< Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

DR

Peter Stewart

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 23:21:41

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121894816.855023.298260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Solitaire wrote:

Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

"Solitaire" being a real name, or is this someone else who can't be trusted
in the alternative view of Hines, starbuck/Mr Gifford Brandon and Uriah N.
Owen/yourself?

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 20 jul 2005 23:37:49

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121894816.855023.298260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Solitaire wrote:

Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

"Solitaire" being a real name, or is this someone else who can't be trusted
in the alternative view of Hines, starbuck/Mr Gifford Brandon and Uriah N.
Owen/yourself?

Peter Stewart

My real name is Douglas Richardson. What is your real name? Are you
really Peter Rose?

DR

Peter Stewart

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 23:49:24

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121899069.608645.88130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121894816.855023.298260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Solitaire wrote:

Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

"Solitaire" being a real name, or is this someone else who can't be
trusted
in the alternative view of Hines, starbuck/Mr Gifford Brandon and Uriah
N.
Owen/yourself?

Peter Stewart

My real name is Douglas Richardson. What is your real name? Are you
really Peter Rose?

Are you really as stupid as you make out?

Peter Rose has nothing more in common with me than his nationality, his
writing of literary criticism and his first name.

His interests are a matter of record, and these don't co-incide with mine.

And he is more than fully occupied in other spheres, without time for SGM
even if he had the inclination.

I might far more sensibly ask "Are you really Douglas Biggs?" who has
published articles on British medieval history that fall into your field of
interest. However, he is intelligent and scholarly, so I already know the
answer.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 20 jul 2005 23:58:22

No, I'm not Douglas Biggs. This is the real me - Douglas Richardson.

But, who are you, Peter? If your Harry Potter reviews are real, where
did you publish them?

Time for Peter to come out of the closet.

DR

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121899069.608645.88130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121894816.855023.298260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Solitaire wrote:

Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

"Solitaire" being a real name, or is this someone else who can't be
trusted
in the alternative view of Hines, starbuck/Mr Gifford Brandon and Uriah
N.
Owen/yourself?

Peter Stewart

My real name is Douglas Richardson. What is your real name? Are you
really Peter Rose?

Are you really as stupid as you make out?

Peter Rose has nothing more in common with me than his nationality, his
writing of literary criticism and his first name.

His interests are a matter of record, and these don't co-incide with mine.

And he is more than fully occupied in other spheres, without time for SGM
even if he had the inclination.

I might far more sensibly ask "Are you really Douglas Biggs?" who has
published articles on British medieval history that fall into your field of
interest. However, he is intelligent and scholarly, so I already know the
answer.

Peter Stewart

solitaire

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av solitaire » 21 jul 2005 00:43:34

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Solitaire wrote:

Take this crap to email.

I totally agree, Solitaire.

DR

Thank you. I came back to lurking in the ng for the last few weeks and discover

that next to _nothing_ is posted on medieval genealogy -- same with
SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL, which has been taken over by a bunch of military freaks
crossposting crap about Uzis and shit. Then someone else is posting TEST
messages, wondering if anyone hears her stupid ass, and I'm getting tired of it.

Anyone here got any idea of what ON-TOPIC means?

Peter Stewart

Re: Being Civil And Cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 01:12:10

Hines wrote:

Indeed.

And without the loafers or the horse he rode in on -- which he is
not telling his creditors or his poor mother, whom he defrauded,
about.

Stewart is definitely in the closet -- there is no further doubt about
that.

For the record, I have no debts related in any way to horses, my mother
is not "poor" and has never been "defrauded" by anyone in her life.

There is indeed no "doubt" over this or anything else about me, since
no evidence has been provided to raise a question in the first place.

Richardson wrote:

No, I'm not Douglas Biggs. this is the real me - Douglas Richardson.

Comprehension difficulties again - I said it was obvious you are not
Douglas Biggs, as he is a competent historian & only writes about
matters that he has researched for himself.

But who are you, Peter?

You ask and you answer at the same time.

If your Harry Potter reviews are real, where did you publish them?

I said there was only ONE review on the (then) four books. Without
checking the publication date of the last, I don't have even a vague
idea when it appeared; it wasn't even immediate, as it wasn't a first
review but a survey of the books and the phenomenon associated with
them. And as I said before, the review in question appeared in a number
of newspapers. This tends to happen when literary pages are syndicated.

Time for Peter to come out of the closet.

Here we go again, projecting onto a stranger some fantasy of your own.
There can be no evidence for a false statement of this kind - if you
think there is, prove it. Meanwhile it is not getting you anywhere but
into the bad books of your own gay readers to imply that this would be
somehow discreditable anyway.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Being Civil And Cordial

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 jul 2005 01:28:12

Indeed.

And without the loafers or the horse he rode in on -- which he is not
telling his creditors or his poor mother, whom he defrauded, about.

Stewart is definitely in the closet -- there is no further doubt about
that.

DSH

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121900302.274447.233820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| No, I'm not Douglas Biggs. This is the real me - Douglas Richardson.
|
| But, who are you, Peter? If your Harry Potter reviews are real, where
| did you publish them?
|
| Time for Peter to come out of the closet.
|
| DR

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jul 2005 01:56:02

bravo, solitaire


kbg

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Being Civil And Cordial

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 jul 2005 03:08:14

Stewart Is Lying Again!

Not that he ever stopped lying...

He Lost The Family Fortune On The Horses....

Stewart Himself Has Already Admitted That.

No Back-Pedaling Allowed.

One major reason he hangs out here in SGM is he is looking for cheap
entertainment -- because that's all he can afford.

I'll give him credit for that -- Stewart does indeed provide Cheap
Entertainment...

And is the butt of many Good Jokes.

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Being Civil And Cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 04:12:08

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4DCDe.361$ds5.1983@eagle.america.net...
Stewart Is Lying Again!

Not that he ever stopped lying...

He Lost The Family Fortune On The Horses....

Stewart Himself Has Already Admitted That.

No Back-Pedaling Allowed.

I'm not "back-pedaling" in any way: I have no debts connected to horses,
simple as that. Fortunes can be lost without going into debt. No creditors
are after me now, and none was ever after me in the past. The events that
Hines alludes to in his desperation - without ANY knowledge - took place in
the 1980s.

Peter Stewart

Hans Vogels

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Hans Vogels » 21 jul 2005 06:19:43

Solitaire,

You were not adressed. It was an answer to Douglas Richardson, to his
reaction on my lines. The subject is "be civil and cordial". Your
reaction is not qualified as such. Looks like your "name" is just an
alias and an excuse to be intentionaly rude.

Hans Vogels

Dear Douglas Richardson,

It seems to me that my earlier assesment of you was correct. I stand
by my earlier words. Your reaction shows that I'm right.

With regards,
Hans Vogels


solitaire <soli13taire@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<hezDe.11234$N91.9369@trnddc08>...
Hans Vogels wrote:
Dear Douglas,

Firstly for the record for some technical reason probably I'm not able
to respond to your reaction on my lines to John Brandon. So therefore
a new string.

Secondly I finaly seem to have struck a nerve. I have remarked in the
past on the silly discussions between you and Leo and between you and
Peter Stewart. You never seemed bothered with my remarks. Why now?
Maybe because I voiced them a bit harder?

My further remarks are placed between your lines.

Take this crap to email.

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jul 2005 12:02:29

Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM. Your
piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.

The On-going Topic seems to be a tennismatch between Douglas Richardson
and Peter Stewart. Anyone who voices a independent opinion is
automaticly classified as a supporter of one or the other.

Hans Vogels

Peter Stewart

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 12:31:11

<volucris@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1121943597.196997.99450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM. Your
piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.

The On-going Topic seems to be a tennismatch between Douglas Richardson
and Peter Stewart. Anyone who voices a independent opinion is
automaticly classified as a supporter of one or the other.

You think Richardson is actually hitting his balls back into my court?

I can't agree about the rest of your remarks either, Hans - for instance,
you have voiced reservations about both of us without seeming to take a
side, in this message and in others.

If you think that Richardson is justified in his barrage of lies, or that I
am not justified in replying to these, you are always entitled to say so.
The exchanges will stop when he stops misrepresenting me and others, as well
as whatever facts are at issue. Beyond that I have no interest in him.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jul 2005 13:23:19

Peter,

No. It would be foolish if Richardson would let his balls out of his
eyeside. He would be quite vulnerable :-)

My next line was a non-comittal remark. Is does not matter what one
says, anyone who wants to do so does.

I opt for a true representation of the facts and not for a presentation
of interpretation as fact. That means I'm siding with you.

But you could do without the Gordon Hale-method and stick to a short
and businesslike answer with dragging in Douglas garbage from other
strings. But that your method not mine.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jul 2005 13:27:37

Correction,

Without dragging in etc.

Hans Vogels

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 jul 2005 15:23:53

With more than 40 years of genealogical experience Douglas must be near
his pension drawing age. According to his activity lately he has not
spent all his powder yet :-)

Hans Vogels

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 21 jul 2005 17:24:07

volucris@chello.nl wrote:
< Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM.
Your
< piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.
<
< The On-going Topic seems to be a tennismatch between Douglas
Richardson
< and Peter Stewart. Anyone who voices a independent opinion is
< automaticly classified as a supporter of one or the other.
<
< Hans Vogels

Dear Hans ~

The on-going topic is the proper research techniques in medieval
genealogy. Peter Stewart often renders his opinion, instead of doing
the necessary research. No evidence = opinion. He uses his "opinions"
to attack people, viciously I might add. He has grossly misrepresented
me on many, many occasions. That is wrong.

I personally like diversity and a difference of opinion. I recommend
that everyone learn to think "outside of the box." I don't mind
Peter's difference of opinion at all. I do draw the line at his name
calling, lying, vicious attacks, and misrepresentations. I also know
he can do better at his research. It's that simple.

DR

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 21 jul 2005 17:26:51

volucris@chello.nl wrote:
< With more than 40 years of genealogical experience Douglas must be
near
< his pension drawing age. According to his activity lately he has not
< spent all his powder yet :-)
<
< Hans Vogels

I'm 54. I got an early start in history and genealogy.

DR

Faye Parker

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Faye Parker » 21 jul 2005 22:01:01

All I know is they are disrupting the entire mailing list, by causing friction between members. More than likely they are sitting back getting a big kick out of all these messages. If you ignore them they will probably leave and go elsewhere. Don't feed into it. Some people thrive on attentionhrive


"Be nice to your enemies. It messes with their head."

proud member of the IBSSG

---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Faye Parker

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Faye Parker » 21 jul 2005 22:02:01

All I know is they are disrupting the entire mailing list, by causing friction between members. More than likely they are sitting back getting a big kick out of all these messages. If you ignore them they will probably leave and go elsewhere. Don't feed into it. Some people thrive on attention, even bad attention



"Be nice to your enemies. It messes with their head."

proud member of the IBSSG

---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Peter Stewart

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 23:30:42

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121963047.170595.177190@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
volucris@chello.nl wrote:
Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM.
Your
piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.

The On-going Topic seems to be a tennismatch between Douglas
Richardson
and Peter Stewart. Anyone who voices a independent opinion is
automaticly classified as a supporter of one or the other.

Hans Vogels

Dear Hans ~

The on-going topic is the proper research techniques in medieval
genealogy. Peter Stewart often renders his opinion, instead of doing
the necessary research. No evidence = opinion. He uses his "opinions"
to attack people, viciously I might add. He has grossly misrepresented
me on many, many occasions. That is wrong.

I personally like diversity and a difference of opinion. I recommend
that everyone learn to think "outside of the box." I don't mind
Peter's difference of opinion at all. I do draw the line at his name
calling, lying, vicious attacks, and misrepresentations. I also know
he can do better at his research. It's that simple.

A better start this time - it may sound to the unwary like something you
have thought about, as of course you intend. But no-one can't tell if it's
just opinion unless you show us some examples. What is the logical point of
asserting "no evidence = opinion" and then failing to provide evidence even
for this opinion. much less the rest?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

solitaire

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av solitaire » 22 jul 2005 04:36:21

Peter Stewart wrote:
volucris@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1121943597.196997.99450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM. Your
piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.

And if everyone simply stands by and allows it to happen, you deserve it.

Peter Stewart

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 jul 2005 04:45:53

"solitaire" <soli13taire@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:VQZDe.14898$N91.11342@trnddc08...
Peter Stewart wrote:
volucris@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:1121943597.196997.99450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Why bother even budding in if SGM has turned the same way as SHM. Your
piece of action is not quite a addition to Medieval Genealogy.

And if everyone simply stands by and allows it to happen, you deserve it.


Peter Stewart did NOT write this - Hans Vogels did.

If you insist on taking up bandwidth complaining about other people taking
up bandwidth, at least try to do this accurately.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jul 2005 13:58:13

Dear Douglas,

That might have been the starting point. When I started voicing my
opinion that track had long been abandoned. So do not remind me what
you should practise yourself. Repeating your same lines does not make
them more trustworthy. Take the advise of CED. He has given you a nice
clear summary. Start from there instead of voicing your opninion in
strings directed to others. Unless ofcourse you have a personal
interest in Solitaire.

If you check his facts you'll notice (or already know) that S. has his
primairy interest in other newsgroups. Furthermore S. is all opinion
and not one who offers information or help in the genealogical
department. Come to think he is not quite someone to be gladly
associated with. But that is your problem.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jul 2005 14:05:22

Douglas,

That's nice. Since Highschool? I found Biclic genealogy and Greek
mythology fascinating. If I count that in I must be 35 years absorbed
in genealogy and history. Not as many as you but you're a few years
ahead of me. :-)

With regards,
Hans Vogels

Gjest

Re: Being civil and cordial

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 jul 2005 14:21:16

Solitaire,

Why don't you buzz off. Your past contributions to internet show you
have an primairy interest in other newsgroups Reading some of them does
not give me an impression that you can be a substantial addition to
this group. The way you voice your opinions gives me the impression
that you're hiding a insecure personallity behind a anonymous front.
Your alias points in that direction too. You'r all bla bla and fried
air. So buzz of and go play with yourself. If you take offence to these
lines you should remember that English is not my everyday language. In
Dutch I'm much more fluently :-)

Hans Vogels

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