Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

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Susan Hicks

Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Susan Hicks » 20 jul 2005 11:10:02

Hello all,

Doe anyone know who the mother was of Baldwin de Bethune (d 1212 or 1213)
count of Aumale? I have found a passing reference to him being the nephew
of Matilda de Braose, the lady who was starved to death by King John, and I
am curious as to the connection between Baldwin and Mathilda.

Regards
Susan

Ginny Wagner

RE: Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 20 jul 2005 13:16:01

<Doe anyone know who the mother was of Baldwin de Bethune (d 1212 or 1213)
count of Aumale? > I think his father was Bishop Robert de Bethune of
Hereford. Does that seem possible? Maybe this information will help you to
locate his mother ...

In Calendar of Documents France 918-1206, J. Horace Round:

Under Robert de Bethuna, Betonia, Betunia, Betuney in the General Index,
identified as bishop of Hereford:

pp. 409 (2 of them):
Abbey of St. Florent, Saumur:

"[1131-1144] 1141.
"Letter from Robert [Bethuna] bishop of Hereford to G[eoffrey] prior of
Monmouth, commending Robert son of Baderon, by whose consent the bishop is
giving to the priory the church of the Blessed Ruald of Treget.
Denunciation of those who may impair and praise of those who uphold this
grant.

"[1144] 1142. Charter of Robert [Bethuna] bishop of Hereford, narrating
that Guienoc, ...." [it's pretty long--will email it to you off list after a
scan if you want it}


and 494 as advocate:

Documents at Lille:

"[?1145-1160] (Original in archives of the Chambre des comptos, with seal
and counterseal of count Thierry on parchment tags.)

"1359. Notification fo the settlement of all disputes (querelis), new and
old, and enimities between Robert de Betunia the advocate (advocatum de
Betunia) and Baldwin castellan of Lens and their heirs for ever on these
terms: the said castellan and his wife and Eustace his son give, for peace
to the above advocate the land which Sigar (Segardus) de Ceoches and
Hiliardis his daughter and Rainald son of Hildiardis had held in Engladn to
him an his heirs, so that if the said castellan would hold that land in fee
from the king of the English, and the king would restore (reddere) it him in
fee, the advocate shall receive it from him and render (exsolvet) him as
much service as they shall mutually agree upon. To effect this, the
castellan is to go to the king iwth his wife and his son, within 15 days, on
being summoned to do so by the advocate. But if th ecastellan be unwilling
to hold of the king or unable to obtain before the king (coram rege) his
inheritance, he and his wife and his son shall abandon it to the advocate,
and thenceforth the advocate shall hold of the king, etc. ... And it is
futher agreed that hte advocate and the castellan shall help one another
against all [men] saving the fealty (fide) of lords and ment, etc. ... And
this concord of the above princes has been made by Thierry count of Flanders
and by Roger de Waurin who are pledges (fidejussores) and witnesses thereof.
Testes sunt etiam Ansellus de Duurin etc. ..."



Under Balduin:
pp. 104, 469 and 528:

"Church of St. Mary, Evreux:

"1192, 10 Jan. 309. Charter of Richard I addressed generally. He restores
and confirms to Morehius le Diveis, the fortified house of Yllees, ...
against William de Aneto, before William son of Ralf, the king's seneschal,
and the other barons at the exchequer, to be held by him and his heirs of
the bishop of Evreux, bu the service due from the fief. ... Testibus:
Roberto comite Leecestrie; Gaufrido de Lezignan; Hugone le Brun; Andrea de
Chauvigne; Radulfo de Mallion (sic); Gaufrido de la Cele; Willelmo de Rupis;
Olivario de Rochefort; Rogero de Toone; Gaufrido de Bruslone; Baldwino de
Betune; Johanne de Pratellis; Petro de Pratellis; Henrico de Grac; Garino
filio Geroudi; Gaufrido de Bosco; Gilleberto Malesmains; Guillelmo de
Mineres, et pluribus aliis.

"Royal Charters, etc.

"1194, 5 Jan. 1291. Charter of Richard I addressed generally. Recites the
fame and great achievements of the order of the Hospital. He has had actual
experience of it, and been a witness of it with his own eyes while in the
land of Jerusalem. For besides their daily and liberal help to those in
want, they have given him such devoted and splendid support on both sides of
the sea, that he is bound to recognise their goodness there. Therefore, for
the souls of his fahter king Henry, and his mother queen Eleanor, and his
brothers, and his predecessors, and for his own, he grants to the order of
the Hospital all his royal right over all their possessions, present and
future. (Full description of the rights thus conveyed to them.) The king
retains nothing but their prayers and spiritual boons.
"Testibus: S[aibrando] Lemovicensi et H[enrico] Xantonensi episcopis;
Balduino de Bethuna; Walkelino de Ferrariis; Roberto de Harecort; Gaufrido
de Saio; Americo vicecomite de Thoarz; Hugone le Brun; Berlai de Mosteroel;
Johanne reposito de Duai; Sefrido thesaurario de Ciscestria. Datum per
manum Willelmi Elyensis episcopi, apostolice sedis legati, cancellarii
nostri, apud Spiram, quinto die Januarii, anno quinto regni nostri."


Miscellaneous:

"1190 5 July -- (Original in "Cabinet des Titres,: Bibliotheque nationale.
Seal in green wax on tag of silk with silver threads.)"

"1430. Charter of Richard I. addressed generally. He grants to Hugh count
of St. Paul, all the land with its appurtenances etc., which Anselm Champ
Daveine his father held in England of his [Richard's] father. The count is
not to plead or be impleaded for that land except before himself or his
chief justice.
"Testibus: Waltero Rothomagensi archiepiscopo; R[eginaldo] Battoniensi
episcopo; Philippo de Columbariis; Andread de Chavingneio; Gaufrido de
Cella; Baldewino de Beton[ia]; Eustachio de Nevilla; Radulfo filio Godefridi
camerario nostro. Da[um], per manum Johannis de Alencon' archidiaconi
Lexoviensis vicecancellarii nostri, apud Molins in Burgundia quinta die
Julii anno primo regni nostri."


Googled 'Bishop of Hereford Bethune' and got:

http://www.crsbi.ac.uk/crsbi/shobdon/intro.html which gives "For further
information:
G. Zarnecki, "The Priory Church of Shobdon and its Founder", D. Buckton & T.
A. Heslop (eds.), Studies in Medieval Art and Architecture Presented to
Peter Lasko. Bath, 1994, 211-20."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Hereford which is Wikpedia that lists
the bishops and where you could add any information you find on him.

http://www.smr.herefordshire.gov.uk/cat ... d_cath.htm

"1140’s: During the civil wars between Stephen and Matilda Hereford featured
prominently. In 1138 Stephen came to the city and besieged the castle. The
cathedral acted as a fortress to Miles of Gloucester who was fighting for
Queen Matilda. Bishop Robert de Bethune who was a loyal supporter of Stephen
was forced to withdraw to Shropshire.

On the feast of Pentecost, Stephen is said to have worn his crown in the
cathedral while seated in a massive wooden chair, which is said to be the
one that is now in the sanctuary of the cathedral, and which still bears his
name.

1143: A truce between Miles and Stephen allowed the foundation of St Guthlac
’s Priory on Episcopal land just outside the city’s Bye Gate.

The following year Matilda’s troops arrived in the city and laid siege to
Stephen’s garrison at the castle. The cathedral and its grounds appear to
have been the headquarters of the troops and they dug ramparts and even
stabled their horses in the cathedral grounds.

1131-48: After the troops left it was up to Bishop Robert de Bethune to
repair the cathedral, remove the ramparts and restart the religious
services. The building of the church at Hereford was carried on throughout
the 12th century and finished (Anglia Sacra) by Bishop Robert de Bethune
This work included the nave and aisles and most probably a central tower. At
this time the earlier presbytery was enhanced with elaborate carving. Bishop
Bethune had studied at the famous school of Laon, where fragments of
evidence point to the fact that Hereford was considered an important centre
of religious study in the 12th century. Indeed the Chained Library holds
over 90 manuscripts from this era, many of them cathedral books."

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=40276

9. THE PRIORY OF LANTHONY BY GLOUCESTER
In or about 1108 Hugh de Lacy founded a monastery dedicated to St. John the
Baptist for Augustinian canons in the valley of the Hodenay, beneath the
Hatteril Hills in Monmouthshire. (Footnote 1) During the reign of Henry I
this monastery of Lanthony prospered greatly, and the number of canons
increased to forty. (Footnote 2) Owing to the disturbances which broke out
immediately after the death of Henry I the canons were reduced to desperate
straits; a Welsh lord took refuge in the monastery with his women-folk, and
enemies cut off the canons' supplies of food. (Footnote 3) In dire distress
they sent a messenger to Robert de Bethune, bishop of Hereford, their former
prior. He invited the convent to take refuge with him, and provided for
their use a chapel, storehouse, barns, and other offices. Some of the canons
chose to remain at Lanthony; (Footnote 4) the greater number, under the
prior, Robert de Braci, took refuge with the bishop, and stayed with him for
two years at his expense. In 1136 at his request Milo, earl of Hereford and
constable of Gloucester, offered the canons a hide of land close to the town
of Gloucester. (Footnote 5) With the money which they had brought from
Wales, and with the bishop's help, the canons at once began to build a new
church, and on 10 September, 1137, (Footnote 6) it was dedicated to the
Virgin by Robert, bishop of Hereford, and Simon, bishop of Worcester.
Buildings were ready for the habitation of the canons, and the convent from
Hereford entered into possession of them. The new foundation was called
Lanthony Secunda to distinguish it from the Welsh house, which was
thenceforth called Lanthony Prima. On the occasion of the dedication Milo,
earl of Hereford, confirmed the gifts of his ancestors, Roger of Gloucester
and Walter the constable of the castle, and added churches and lands for the
support of the canons. (Footnote 7) Thus this endowment included, besides
the site, the meadow called Castle Mead, a tithe of the fishery by the
castle and of Quedgeley, the chapel within the castle, the chapels of St.
Kinburga and Elmore, besides other tithes in the earl of Hereford's
demesnes. Afterwards he granted the church of Barton in Hampshire and in
1141 the manor of Heyhampstead. (Footnote 8) In 1137 Robert de Braci died,
and was succeeded as prior by William de Wycombe, the familiar friend of
Robert de Bethune. The chronicler implies that Robert de Bethune stipulated
for the return of the canons to the mother church if peace were concluded,
leaving only thirteen of their number at Gloucester. (Footnote 9) In 1146,
at the bishop's request, Pope Eugenius III confirmed the possessions of the
two priories, and decreed that the house at Gloucester should continue as a
cell to the mother church of St. John the Baptist. (Footnote 10) The canons
of Gloucester were soon afterwards joined by a band of twenty brethren, who
were constrained to leave the mother house because their property lay
barren. (Footnote 11) Robert de Bethune granted lands and churches in the
diocese of Hereford that the newcomers might not be a burden on the younger
foundation. The thought of returning to the mother house was hateful; they
appreciated the contrast between the town of Gloucester and the desolate
Hatteril mountains. (Footnote 12) The chronicler told how he had heard some
of the canons say that they wished each stone of the mother church was a
hare, and others that they longed for the earth to open and swallow it up.
They devoted their revenues to the fabric of the new church to the neglect
of the elder. As it could not be deserted, all the old, weak, and more
humble brethren were sent thither and left in want of clothing and food,
while the canons at Gloucester enjoyed plenty. Everything of value was
gradually removed to Gloucester, the books of the library, silken cloths,
charters, and muniments, even the bells. (Footnote 13) William de Wycombe,
himself a man of austere life, strove, though in vain, to maintain
discipline at Gloucester. (Footnote 14) The canons hated him, and used his
work on the life of Robert de Bethune to get rid of him. In the course of a
serious quarrel, the bishop excommunicated Milo, earl of Hereford, and in
1143, while under the ban, he was killed when hunting in the Forest of Dean.
William de Wycombe, the bishop's familiar friend, wrote vehemently against
the tyrant, as he styled the earl. The canons informed his son Roger, earl
of Hereford of this, and he swore vengeance on the house. William de Wycombe
resigned, and left Gloucester to dwell for the rest of his life at Canon
Frome in Herefordshire. His successor, Clement, compelled the brethren to
dwell with him for a year at the mother house leaving but thirteen at
Gloucester, but they would not stay; (Footnote 15) on account of St. John,
he said, 'we shall all descend into hell.' The Welsh house pleased him as a
place for study (Footnote 16) and prayer (Footnote 17) but the chronicler
deemed that the wisdom of the serpent would have profited him more than the
innocence of the dove. (Footnote 18)

From: 'Houses of Augustinian canons: The priory of Lanthony by Gloucester',
A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 2 (1907), pp. 87-91. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=40276. Date accessed: 20
July 2005.

Footnotes
1Dugdale, Mon. vi. 130.
2Ibid. 131.
3Ibid. 132, 133.
4Ibid. 132.
5Ibid. 136.
6Ibid. 137.
7Ibid. 136, 137.
8Dugdale, Mon. vi, 137.
9Ibid. 132.
10MS. Top. Glouc. C. 5, Bodl. Lib. fol. 607. This manuscript of Richard
Furney, archdeacon of Surrey (ob. 1752), contains a valuable collection of
notes extracted from a series of registers of Lanthony by Gloucester which
were then in the possession of the Scudamores of Holme Lacy.
11Dugdale, op. cit. vi. 132.
12Ibid. 133.
13Ibid. 133.
14Ibid. 133.
15Ibid. 134.
16Cf. MS. Top. Glouc. C. 5, fol. 644.
17Giraldus Cambrensis, Opera (Roll Ser.), vi, 30.
18Mon. vii, 134.

From: 'Houses of Augustinian canons: The priory of Lanthony by Gloucester',
A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 2 (1907), pp. 87-91. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=40276. Date accessed: 20
July 2005.

Good luck with your hunt. Ginny Wagner

Susan Hicks

Re: Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Susan Hicks » 20 jul 2005 14:29:02

Ginny wrote:
""
I think his father was Bishop Robert de Bethune of
Hereford. Does that seem possible? Maybe this information will help you
to
locate his mother ...

Thanks Ginny, but no, Baldwin's father was Robert, advocate of Bethune.
Another member has posted to me offlist and it seems that Baldwin's
connection to Maude de Braose - which was my reason for asking - is through
marriage. It's Baldwin's wife, Hawise, Countess of Aumale, who is related
to Maude de Braose, nee St Valery. Would still be useful to know the name
of Baldwin's mother though :-)


Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 jul 2005 19:13:26

In message of 20 Jul, "Susan Hicks" <susan.hicks1@btinternet.com> wrote:

Ginny wrote:
""
I think his father was Bishop Robert de Bethune of
Hereford. Does that seem possible? Maybe this information will help you
to
locate his mother ...

Thanks Ginny, but no, Baldwin's father was Robert, advocate of Bethune.
Another member has posted to me offlist and it seems that Baldwin's
connection to Maude de Braose - which was my reason for asking - is through
marriage. It's Baldwin's wife, Hawise, Countess of Aumale, who is related
to Maude de Braose, nee St Valery. Would still be useful to know the name
of Baldwin's mother though :-)

Adelaide de St Pol. Ref Keats-Rohan, DD, 324

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Hans Vogels

Re: Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Hans Vogels » 20 jul 2005 19:24:03

Susan,

The answer is Adelisa of Saint Pol.

Source:
Dr.Hist. E.Warlop, The Flemish Nobility before 1300, 4 vol. (1976),
table 21 Béthune, page 660 and 665.

The info on Baldwin is:
Balwin (1177-1211), died 13-10-1211, count of Aumale, lord of
Chocques, on crusade 1191, x Hawide heiress of Aumale.

No connection to Matilda de Braose can be found in the chart or
genealogy.

Hans Vogels

"Susan Hicks" <susan.hicks1@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<dbl4af$3pr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>...
Hello all,

Doe anyone know who the mother was of Baldwin de Bethune (d 1212 or 1213)
count of Aumale? I have found a passing reference to him being the nephew
of Matilda de Braose, the lady who was starved to death by King John, and I
am curious as to the connection between Baldwin and Mathilda.

Regards
Susan

Susan Hicks

Re: Mother of Baldwin de Bethune

Legg inn av Susan Hicks » 20 jul 2005 22:45:02

Tim and Hans,

Thank you very much for your replies - very useful.

Susan

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