Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

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John P. DuLong

Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 20 jul 2005 03:11:26

Hello,

Would anyone out there be able to please translate the following motto
for me:

"Quid gens sine mente."

It comes from the arms of Lt.-Col. Agmondesham Muschamp (1598-ca. 1658)
of Ireland.

I can not find it in the list of translated mottos that comes with the
Armorial Gold CD. Perhaps it is in Fairbain, but I do not have easy
access to that work.

Your assistance is much appreciated. Thank you.

JP

Madalch

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Madalch » 20 jul 2005 04:56:59

An online translator at
http://www.translation-guide.com/free_o ... lators.php?
gives "What clan without mind?", if that helps.

The Mad Alchemist
m@d@lch@c@n@d@.com

Roberto

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Roberto » 20 jul 2005 08:41:10

"Quid gens sine mente."
"Which future without logic"

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 08:55:20

"Roberto" <r.diviccaro@virgilio.it> wrote in message
news:qenDe.182984$75.7953213@news4.tin.it...
"Quid gens sine mente."
"Which future without logic"

Mottoes of this sort are frequently cryptic, almost like telegrams
translated into Latin that is scarcely better than doggerel (though better
than the effort of Hines).

I think you have probably got somewhere near the meaning that was intended -
perhaps "What is pedigree without [cultivation of] the mind?"

Was the person - or did he imagine himself - a gentleman scholar?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 08:59:33

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:IrnDe.53427$oJ.20354@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Roberto" <r.diviccaro@virgilio.it> wrote in message
news:qenDe.182984$75.7953213@news4.tin.it...
"Quid gens sine mente."
"Which future without logic"

Mottoes of this sort are frequently cryptic, almost like telegrams
translated into Latin that is scarcely better than doggerel (though better
than the effort of Hines).

I think you have probably got somewhere near the meaning that was
intended - perhaps "What is pedigree without [cultivation of] the mind?"

Was the person - or did he imagine himself - a gentleman scholar?

Or if he wasn't, maybe "What is pedigree without character?"

Peter Stewart

Jan Böhme

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Jan Böhme » 20 jul 2005 10:45:22

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:11:26 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote:

Hello,

Would anyone out there be able to please translate the following motto
for me:

"Quid gens sine mente."

Both "gens" and "mens" can have several related meanings, but "What
[group of] people [can there be] without soul? would be my generic
attempt. Because this Muschamp hailed from Ireland, "gens" might mean
"clan" in his context, although I must say that I never hav heard of a
Clan Muschamp.

The motto doesn't strike me as particularly good or elegant Latin,
though.

Jan Böhme
Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.

Gjest

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 jul 2005 14:37:01

Fairbairn's gives it as "What would the clan do without mind?"

Adrian



In a message dated 20/07/2005 10:46:56 GMT Standard Time, jan.bohme@sh.se
writes:



On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:11:26 -0400, "John P. DuLong"
<dulongd@habitant.org> wrote:

Hello,

Would anyone out there be able to please translate the following motto
for me:

"Quid gens sine mente."

Both "gens" and "mens" can have several related meanings, but "What
[group of] people [can there be] without soul? would be my generic
attempt. Because this Muschamp hailed from Ireland, "gens" might mean
"clan" in his context, although I must say that I never hav heard of a
Clan Muschamp.

The motto doesn't strike me as particularly good or elegant Latin,
though.

Jan Böhme
Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 15:07:36

<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1e9.403f0366.300f9f28@aol.com...

Fairbairn's gives it as "What would the clan do without mind?"

Well, the clans Brandon, Hines and Richardson would go on without noticing a
difference.

But this is a very stilted kind of motto, and not a convincing translation
by Fairbairn. "Gens" means a clan or house (in the sense of a family, an
ancestry or a descent), but since the phrase "quid gens sine mente" has no
verb I think it is a stretch to provide "would...do" rather than "is" in
construing it.

Also, why would a motto contemplate the person's clan losing its collective
mind?

Peter Stewart

John Townsend

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John Townsend » 20 jul 2005 18:26:07

Peter Stewart wrote (snip)>
Fairbairn's gives it as "What would the clan do without mind?"

But this is a very stilted kind of motto, and not a convincing translation
by Fairbairn. "Gens" means a clan or house (in the sense of a family, an
ancestry or a descent), but since the phrase "quid gens sine mente" has no
verb I think it is a stretch to provide "would...do" rather than "is" in
construing it.

Also, why would a motto contemplate the person's clan losing its collective
mind?


I tend to agree with this assessment. As for the lack of a verb, may I
suggest that a verb such as "iuvat" is understood here. Therefore, my
translation would be very similar to Peter Stewart's earlier stab: "What is
the use of pedigree without [cultivation of] the mind?"

Best wishes,

John Townsend

Roberto

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Roberto » 20 jul 2005 19:13:36

"Quid gens sine mente."


The motto doesn't strike me as particularly good or elegant Latin,
though.

This is a clear latin

quid = which
gens= sons o future people. better a generic future
sine= without
mente= logic o ratio

which future without ratio

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 23:19:42

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message news:8e.2ba0e948.30101acc@aol.com...
Dear Newsgroup Members,
Could the Phrase " quid gens
sine
mente " be translated as What Future does the Clan have without thought ?

This doesn't catch a plausible meaning: "gens" means basically the family,
past, present and future if you like. However, it doesn't mean "the future",
and doesn't even have one if relying on thought rather than action.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 23:23:32

""Robert Baxter"" <rsbaxter@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:20050720212958.PINL12809.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net@bob...
Try "What people have no soul!".

Can you explain the import of this sentiment as a personal or family motto?
Doctrinal statements of the obvious don't usually appear in this context.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 jul 2005 23:24:01

Dear Newsgroup Members,
Could the Phrase " quid gens sine
mente " be translated as What Future does the Clan have without thought ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Robert Baxter

RE: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Robert Baxter » 20 jul 2005 23:31:01

Try "What people have no soul!".

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: John Townsend [mailto:john@johntownsend.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:26 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Peter Stewart wrote (snip)>
Fairbairn's gives it as "What would the clan do without mind?"

But this is a very stilted kind of motto, and not a convincing translation
by Fairbairn. "Gens" means a clan or house (in the sense of a family, an
ancestry or a descent), but since the phrase "quid gens sine mente" has no
verb I think it is a stretch to provide "would...do" rather than "is" in
construing it.

Also, why would a motto contemplate the person's clan losing its collective
mind?


I tend to agree with this assessment. As for the lack of a verb, may I
suggest that a verb such as "iuvat" is understood here. Therefore, my
translation would be very similar to Peter Stewart's earlier stab: "What is
the use of pedigree without [cultivation of] the mind?"

Best wishes,

John Townsend

Robert Baxter

RE: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Robert Baxter » 20 jul 2005 23:35:02

It is as good as "mentem mortalia tangent" which is Virgil.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Roberto [mailto:r.diviccaro@virgilio.it]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 1:14 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto


"Quid gens sine mente."


The motto doesn't strike me as particularly good or elegant Latin,
though.

This is a clear latin

quid = which
gens= sons o future people. better a generic future
sine= without
mente= logic o ratio

which future without ratio

John P. DuLong

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 21 jul 2005 01:11:00

Peter Stewart wrote:

Was the person - or did he imagine himself - a gentleman scholar?

I can assure you that Agmondesham Muschamp was no gentleman scholar. He
was a soldier and took great joy in it when the Irish rebelled because
it gave him an excuse to punish them.

JP

John P. DuLong

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 21 jul 2005 01:15:06

Jan Böhme wrote:

Both "gens" and "mens" can have several related meanings, but "What
[group of] people [can there be] without soul? would be my generic
attempt. Because this Muschamp hailed from Ireland, "gens" might mean
"clan" in his context, although I must say that I never hav heard of a
Clan Muschamp.

Agmondesham Muschamp was English and had recently settled in Ireland.
The only contact he had with Irish clans was suppressing them.

The motto doesn't strike me as particularly good or elegant Latin,
though.

Given the number and variety of translations, I would have to agree that
it is vague. So far though, I like Mr. Stewart's translation the best,
namely, "What is pedigree without character?" For my purposes, it fits
the bill for the current writing project I am working on.

JP

John P. DuLong

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 21 jul 2005 01:24:41

Peter Stewart wrote:

Can you explain the import of this sentiment as a personal or family motto?
Doctrinal statements of the obvious don't usually appear in this context.

All I know is that this is the motto for the Muschamp arms ranted to
Deny Muschamp, the son of Lt.-Col. Agmondesham Muschamp, by Carney,
Ulster King of Arms, in 1685 (see Burke, General Armory, 718). The arms
are canting arms playing on the surnames original French meaning for a
fly. The arms are: Or, three bars Gules, on a canton Azure a harvest
fly displayed of the first. Crest: On a cannon royal mounted Or, a
cat-a-mountain passant guardant Proper. Motto: Quid gens sine mente.

As I alluded to before, Agmondesham was English, born in Surrey, and
came to Ireland as a soldier. He was known for his harsh treatment of
his Irish neighbors and for his skill in fooling them.

I can find no motto for the Muschamp family back in Surrey. So I think
that this motto is something that Agmondesham came up with.

I really appreciate all of your helping with this translation and in
particular I find your suggestions Mr. Stewart to be very interesting.
Thank you all.

JP

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 03:58:06

"John P. DuLong" <dulongd@habitant.org> wrote in message
news:5eCdnVB83aKJdUPfRVn-pA@comcast.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:

Was the person - or did he imagine himself - a gentleman scholar?

I can assure you that Agmondesham Muschamp was no gentleman scholar. He
was a soldier and took great joy in it when the Irish rebelled because it
gave him an excuse to punish them.

Did he originate the motto? If so, I suggested "What is pedigree without
character?" That is soldierly enough, and almost a literal translation too.

Peter Stewart

John Higgins

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John Higgins » 21 jul 2005 05:43:01

I'm guessing that this Agmondesham Muschamp is the one whose daughter Anne
mar. John Vesey, Archbishop of Tuam. Their son Agmondesham Vesey mar. a
niece of Sir Patrick Sarsfield, Earl of Lucan and had a daughter who mar.
into the Bingham family and is thus an ancestor of the current Earls of
Lucan (among other interesting folks!)

Agmondesham Muschamp has been pretty elusive for me, so your
characterization of him in Ireland is quite intriguing. Do you have any
more biographical details on him? Do you happen to know who he married?
The only ancestry I've seen for him is a couple of visitation pedigrees -
has anything better been found?

BTW - on a related matter: A few years ago you mentioned that you had a
hypothesis on the ancestry of John Vesey, Archbishop of Tuam. Has there
been any progress on this front?

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide....and good luck in
your hunting!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. DuLong" <dulongd@habitant.org>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto


Peter Stewart wrote:

Can you explain the import of this sentiment as a personal or family
motto?
Doctrinal statements of the obvious don't usually appear in this
context.

All I know is that this is the motto for the Muschamp arms ranted to
Deny Muschamp, the son of Lt.-Col. Agmondesham Muschamp, by Carney,
Ulster King of Arms, in 1685 (see Burke, General Armory, 718). The arms
are canting arms playing on the surnames original French meaning for a
fly. The arms are: Or, three bars Gules, on a canton Azure a harvest
fly displayed of the first. Crest: On a cannon royal mounted Or, a
cat-a-mountain passant guardant Proper. Motto: Quid gens sine mente.

As I alluded to before, Agmondesham was English, born in Surrey, and
came to Ireland as a soldier. He was known for his harsh treatment of
his Irish neighbors and for his skill in fooling them.

I can find no motto for the Muschamp family back in Surrey. So I think
that this motto is something that Agmondesham came up with.

I really appreciate all of your helping with this translation and in
particular I find your suggestions Mr. Stewart to be very interesting.
Thank you all.

JP

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 jul 2005 06:06:11

Robert Baxter wrote:

It is as good as "mentem mortalia tangent" which is Virgil.

I see your point, Bob, though I wouldn't say it is quite that good.

My remarks before about telegraphese put into poor Latin were not
directed at this motto specifically. It's better than a lot of others,
but suffers from the range of meanings that could be ascribed to "quid
gens sine mente" without more context.

Virgil can be much harder to construe, but then usually much more
worthwhile too. Some of his phrases are a kind of poetry more
concentrated and grand at the same time than any others have written. A
telegram from him would be quite something!

Peter Stewart

John Townsend

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John Townsend » 21 jul 2005 07:42:59

"Robert Baxter" wrote
Try "What people have no soul!".


Something grammatically wrong here. The word "quid" used here is a pronoun,
not an adjective, and, in any case, the substantive "gens" is feminine.
(The correct adjective, in order to have Robert's meaning, would, surely, be
"qualis").

Best wishes,

John Townsend

Peter Stewart

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 jul 2005 09:41:40

"John Townsend" <john@johntownsend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dbngal$jfp$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
"Robert Baxter" wrote
Try "What people have no soul!".


Something grammatically wrong here. The word "quid" used here is a
pronoun,
not an adjective, and, in any case, the substantive "gens" is feminine.
(The correct adjective, in order to have Robert's meaning, would, surely,
be
"qualis").

I have forgotten more grammar than I ever learned, John, but I had read the
interrogative "quid" as an adverb rather than pronoun in "quid gens" - i.e.
"What [is] kin?" qualitatively rather than substantively. Is this wrong?

Peter Stewart

John P. DuLong

Re: Help with Latin Muschamp Motto

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 23 jul 2005 13:15:55

John Higgins wrote:

I'm guessing that this Agmondesham Muschamp is the one whose daughter Anne
mar. John Vesey, Archbishop of Tuam. Their son Agmondesham Vesey mar. a
niece of Sir Patrick Sarsfield, Earl of Lucan and had a daughter who mar.
into the Bingham family and is thus an ancestor of the current Earls of
Lucan (among other interesting folks!)

Agmondesham Muschamp has been pretty elusive for me, so your
characterization of him in Ireland is quite intriguing. Do you have any
more biographical details on him? Do you happen to know who he married?
The only ancestry I've seen for him is a couple of visitation pedigrees -
has anything better been found?

Yes, you have guessed correctly. I have found information about his
military career in Ireland and his relation to the local Irish. I have
also figured out how he fits into the Muschamps back in England, but I
am hoping to uncover documents that verify what must remain a theory of
his origins. All of my findings on him will be published in the book my
wife and I are working on regarding her Anglo-Irish and Scottish ancestry.

As for Muschamp's wife, I think she was a Ann Denny. This is what is
claimed on the PRONI web site if you look at the Vesey papers there.
However, when I asked them for evidence, they were only able to give me
a very vague reply. I have found her in a contemporary record, but her
maiden name is not given. Nor have I been able to find where she falls
in the important Denny family. But I keep looking. I figure another
research trip to Salt Lake City or Dublin and I should be able to
properly identify her and lock down Agmondesham's origins. If my wife
and I document these two aspects of his life, then I think we would rush
out an article rather than waiting for the book. So many Anglo-Irish
families have ties to the Muschamps that it would be an interesting
piece to get published.

By the way, have you seen the following?

Thorndale, William. “Drew Pickayes (1564-1607): A Jamestown Founder.”
The American Genealogist 70 (July 1995): 129-137, 70 (October 1995):
223-232.

It contains some excellent information about the Muschamps back in
England. It is also a great model for thorough research.

BTW - on a related matter: A few years ago you mentioned that you had a
hypothesis on the ancestry of John Vesey, Archbishop of Tuam. Has there
been any progress on this front?

Sadly, I must confess that I have made no progress on the theory that
the Irish Veseys were related to the Veseys of Hintlesham Priory in
Suffolk. Here is a summary of the information we are putting in the
book regarding the first Vesey in Ireland:

"WILLIAM VESEY, married –?– KER of Cesford, Scotland. His origins are
uncertain. There are two theories of his origins, both lacking
sufficient evidence. The first theory claims that he descends from
Thomas de Vescy, the third son of William, Lord Vescy, who had removed
to Newland, Cumberland, England. He would therefore be a descendant of
the ancient and famous de Vescy family of Norman blood. William was
reportedly forced to flee to Scotland after he killed a man in a duel.
After the reign of Queen Elizabeth, he settled in Northern Ireland.
The second theory puts forward that he was one of the Veseys from
Hintlesham Priory, Suffolk, England. He attended Gray’s Inn and is
mentioned in the will of his alleged maternal uncle, Henry Reynolds.
There is a William Vesey in Suffolk who fits these facts, but he appears
to have lived and died in England."

Because so many of my wife's ancestry is easily traced back to England
and Scotland, I am afraid I will never invest the time to thoroughly
research the Veseys of Ireland. But it is interesting to note that Sir
William Betham, the Ulster King of Arms, in his notes on the Veseys was
leaning towards the Hintlesham Priory theory too.

I hope I have answered your questions. And thanks again everyone for
the help with the motto. I wish I had paid more attention to Latin as a
child, but the Catholic church dropped it just as I was starting to
learn it!

JP

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