My understanding of the St Sauveurs of the Contentin
during the period 1000 - 1050 is as follows:
Roger I St Sauveur died about 1014.
Neel II St Sauveur died 1041 (two sons Nigel III and
Roger).
Neel III St Sauveur banished 1047.
1014: Neel II was placed in charge of the fortress of
Tillieres and castellan of Charrnel where he was
associated with Auvrai le Geant (Gustave Dupont) He
was considered a great warrior and responsible for the
defeat of the Bretons.
He was witness to Charters of Normandy Dukes, also a
charter of Gonnor (widow of Richard I (CFD 702-795).
On the death of Duke Robert, he was one of the nobles
charged with government of the duchy during the
minority of the Bretons.
1028-1034: Duke Robert granted to S.Michael Abbay half
the Isle of Guernsey, the dues of the other half to
the benefit of Neel II. This deed was witnessed by
Neel the Viscount and Neel his son (CFD 705)
1040: Charter of Gradulfe Abbot of St Wandrille was
witnessed by Neel II the Viscount (Yeatman)
1041: Neel II died. Pedigree suggests that he married
Gohilda (daughter) Raymond Borel - Count of Barcelona.
There were two sons Neel III and Roger.
1040/42: Neel III is first recorded to have signed a
deed of William Count of the Normans describing
himself "Nigel the Younger"
1040/47: Neel III was involved in a bitter quarrel
with Ranulf of Bayeux which developed into war fare.
Possibly he resented losing half the patrimony of
Guernsey due to the Duke restoring the Ranulf the
moity taken from Ranulf's ancestor. Regardless Neel
III could not be satisfied, there was a subsequent
rebellion (battle of Val des Dunes), and finally he
was banished (M Le Cointe) His estates escheated to
the duke.
Neel III certainly made his peace with William, but
relinquished his honours, and became a monk in the
Abbay of Mount S.Michael. Evidence of Neel being a
monk is provided by two charters of the Abbay -a grant
of land by Neel III of land in Preaux, and a grant of
St Columbe, both to the Abbay of St Michael (Delisle)
Neel III married a daughter of Duke Robert of Normandy
(great great grand daughter of Richard Duke of
Normandy), and if this is correct presumably a sister
of William I of England. Children included Neel IV of
Halton and possibly a daughter who married William de
Vernon.
Neel III was described as patruus of Hugh of Chester.
If correct, it would support the claim that he was a
brother in law of William I of England. (Pegot-Ogier)
(Gustave Dupont)
1048: Duke William gave to Abbay St Martin Marmoutier
six churches in Guernsey, and Neel III confirmed.
1049: Neel IV suppressed the Collegiate Church, and
replaced it with an Abbay for the Benedictines.
1050: Neel IV led an attack of Angers.
There are two more Neels to discuss - Neel V and Neel
VI. These individuals will be addressed over the
period 1050-1150.If the two subscribers who expressed
interest in the St Sauveur family have any questions,
I will be happy to respond.
Sincerely Yours,
Paul Bulkley
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Neel de St Sauveur
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Neel de St Sauveur
"paul bulkley" <designeconomic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20050718175826.14521.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
Before charging on with this numbering for the Néels of Saint-Sauveur, it
might have been worthwhile to address the problem that your Néel I of the
previous post is not documented. Since this has been ignored, anyone who
wishes to avoid confusion should therefore subtract 1 from the numbers given
to the men of this name.
William of Jumièges relates that Néel I fought off an invasion of the
Cotentin by the English. According to the same source, his charge of the
fortress at Tillières was shared with Rodulf de Tosny and the latter's son.
Afterwards Duke Robert launched a raid into Brittany from a fortress at
Cherrueix (not "Charnel"), and in retaliation the Count Alan and his Bretons
attacked Avranches, defended by Néel along with Alvred (not "Auvrai") the
Giant. This does not mean that Néel was made castellan of Cherrueix. What is
the source for that statement?
The minority of William the Bastard, who was NOT a Breton much less more
than one of them.
Your source has misread the document: this is no. 73 on pp. 212-214 in the
edition by Marie Fauroux cited previously. A moiety of Guernsey was already
held by Néel I, and all that was granted concerning him was the other moiety
still held by Duke Robert plus the rights he had reserved over the holding
of Néel, to Mont-Saint-Michel abbey ("id est medietatem insule quae dicitur
Greneroy ad integrum, et ex altara [sic] medietate quam quidam fidelis
noster, nomine Nigellus, in beneficio tenet, omnes consuetudines quas in
meos usus retinebam, hoc est melaium et omnia quaecumque ex ipso beneficio
meis usibus proveniunt").
"Pedigree" may suggest all it likes, but this is mere romance. The only
daughter of Count Ramón Borell said to have married a Norman was the wife of
Roger 'the Spaniard' de Tosny. The wife of Néel I has been conjecturally
placed as a daughter of Count Robert of Avranches, much more plausible from
onomastics in the Saint-Sauveur family and otherwise.
The date range for this charter according to Fauroux was 1035/48, given in
an earlier post.
Néel II became involved in the attempted coup by Guy of Burgundy against the
rule of his íllegitimate cousin William. This is told by Wace and well
enough supported elsewhere: I fail to see how any account of Néels career,
however brief, could omit to mention it. The moiety of Guernsey was
confiscated AFTER Val des Dunes, not before. He was made to do penance by
giving some churches on the island with other possessions to the abbey of
Marmoutier, and his barony was restored. For how long he regained his former
position as viscount of the Cotentin is not clear - Eudes au Chapel and
Robert Bertran, seigneur of Bricquebec also held this in his lifetime, but
Néel was using the title at the time of his penance ca 1048 and again by the
time of his death in August 1092.
Delisle did not give any such charters as far as I can see, nor did he
relate any other evidence of Néel becoming a monk. There are some charters
from the cartulary of Mont-Saint-Michel subscribed by this viscount, but
none suggesting that he was tonsured there. Where do you claim this evidence
to be found?
William the Conqueror's only recorded sister by his father Duke Roebrt was
Adela, whose husbands did not include Néel II.
Why? "Patruus" means paternal uncle, a brother of the father. Earl Hugo of
Chester was the son of Richard, viscount of Avranches, who was in turn a son
of Turstin le Goz. Néel II did not belong to this agnatic line, but anyway
this would not have made him a brother-in-law of the Conqueror. Hugo's
mother was a maternal half-sister of William, so that Richard of Avranches
was brother-in-law to the latter.
They had been his churches - see above. Marmoutier abbey was dedicated to
Saint Martin but is not given both names.
Three decades later, ca 1080, Néel II founded the Benedictine abbey of
Saint-Sauveur - see Delisle, op cit, pièces justificatives no. 38 p. 42.
What is the source for this?
Perhaps you could respond to the points I have raised before ploughing on.
In the interests of genuine enquiry regarding this family, I hope your
sources will be properly revealed and the next instalment will be withheld
until some progress is at least attempted.
Peter Stewart
news:20050718175826.14521.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
My understanding of the St Sauveurs of the Contentin
during the period 1000 - 1050 is as follows:
Roger I St Sauveur died about 1014.
Neel II St Sauveur died 1041 (two sons Nigel III and
Roger).
Neel III St Sauveur banished 1047.
Before charging on with this numbering for the Néels of Saint-Sauveur, it
might have been worthwhile to address the problem that your Néel I of the
previous post is not documented. Since this has been ignored, anyone who
wishes to avoid confusion should therefore subtract 1 from the numbers given
to the men of this name.
1014: Neel II was placed in charge of the fortress of
Tillieres and castellan of Charrnel where he was
associated with Auvrai le Geant (Gustave Dupont) He
was considered a great warrior and responsible for the
defeat of the Bretons.
William of Jumièges relates that Néel I fought off an invasion of the
Cotentin by the English. According to the same source, his charge of the
fortress at Tillières was shared with Rodulf de Tosny and the latter's son.
Afterwards Duke Robert launched a raid into Brittany from a fortress at
Cherrueix (not "Charnel"), and in retaliation the Count Alan and his Bretons
attacked Avranches, defended by Néel along with Alvred (not "Auvrai") the
Giant. This does not mean that Néel was made castellan of Cherrueix. What is
the source for that statement?
He was witness to Charters of Normandy Dukes, also a
charter of Gonnor (widow of Richard I (CFD 702-795).
On the death of Duke Robert, he was one of the nobles
charged with government of the duchy during the
minority of the Bretons.
The minority of William the Bastard, who was NOT a Breton much less more
than one of them.
1028-1034: Duke Robert granted to S.Michael Abbay half
the Isle of Guernsey, the dues of the other half to
the benefit of Neel II. This deed was witnessed by
Neel the Viscount and Neel his son (CFD 705)
Your source has misread the document: this is no. 73 on pp. 212-214 in the
edition by Marie Fauroux cited previously. A moiety of Guernsey was already
held by Néel I, and all that was granted concerning him was the other moiety
still held by Duke Robert plus the rights he had reserved over the holding
of Néel, to Mont-Saint-Michel abbey ("id est medietatem insule quae dicitur
Greneroy ad integrum, et ex altara [sic] medietate quam quidam fidelis
noster, nomine Nigellus, in beneficio tenet, omnes consuetudines quas in
meos usus retinebam, hoc est melaium et omnia quaecumque ex ipso beneficio
meis usibus proveniunt").
1040: Charter of Gradulfe Abbot of St Wandrille was
witnessed by Neel II the Viscount (Yeatman)
1041: Neel II died. Pedigree suggests that he married
Gohilda (daughter) Raymond Borel - Count of Barcelona.
There were two sons Neel III and Roger.
"Pedigree" may suggest all it likes, but this is mere romance. The only
daughter of Count Ramón Borell said to have married a Norman was the wife of
Roger 'the Spaniard' de Tosny. The wife of Néel I has been conjecturally
placed as a daughter of Count Robert of Avranches, much more plausible from
onomastics in the Saint-Sauveur family and otherwise.
1040/42: Neel III is first recorded to have signed a
deed of William Count of the Normans describing
himself "Nigel the Younger"
The date range for this charter according to Fauroux was 1035/48, given in
an earlier post.
1040/47: Neel III was involved in a bitter quarrel
with Ranulf of Bayeux which developed into war fare.
Possibly he resented losing half the patrimony of
Guernsey due to the Duke restoring the Ranulf the
moity taken from Ranulf's ancestor. Regardless Neel
III could not be satisfied, there was a subsequent
rebellion (battle of Val des Dunes), and finally he
was banished (M Le Cointe) His estates escheated to
the duke.
Néel II became involved in the attempted coup by Guy of Burgundy against the
rule of his íllegitimate cousin William. This is told by Wace and well
enough supported elsewhere: I fail to see how any account of Néels career,
however brief, could omit to mention it. The moiety of Guernsey was
confiscated AFTER Val des Dunes, not before. He was made to do penance by
giving some churches on the island with other possessions to the abbey of
Marmoutier, and his barony was restored. For how long he regained his former
position as viscount of the Cotentin is not clear - Eudes au Chapel and
Robert Bertran, seigneur of Bricquebec also held this in his lifetime, but
Néel was using the title at the time of his penance ca 1048 and again by the
time of his death in August 1092.
Neel III certainly made his peace with William, but
relinquished his honours, and became a monk in the
Abbay of Mount S.Michael. Evidence of Neel being a
monk is provided by two charters of the Abbay -a grant
of land by Neel III of land in Preaux, and a grant of
St Columbe, both to the Abbay of St Michael (Delisle)
Delisle did not give any such charters as far as I can see, nor did he
relate any other evidence of Néel becoming a monk. There are some charters
from the cartulary of Mont-Saint-Michel subscribed by this viscount, but
none suggesting that he was tonsured there. Where do you claim this evidence
to be found?
Neel III married a daughter of Duke Robert of Normandy
(great great grand daughter of Richard Duke of
Normandy), and if this is correct presumably a sister
of William I of England. Children included Neel IV of
Halton and possibly a daughter who married William de
Vernon.
William the Conqueror's only recorded sister by his father Duke Roebrt was
Adela, whose husbands did not include Néel II.
Neel III was described as patruus of Hugh of Chester.
If correct, it would support the claim that he was a
brother in law of William I of England. (Pegot-Ogier)
(Gustave Dupont)
Why? "Patruus" means paternal uncle, a brother of the father. Earl Hugo of
Chester was the son of Richard, viscount of Avranches, who was in turn a son
of Turstin le Goz. Néel II did not belong to this agnatic line, but anyway
this would not have made him a brother-in-law of the Conqueror. Hugo's
mother was a maternal half-sister of William, so that Richard of Avranches
was brother-in-law to the latter.
1048: Duke William gave to Abbay St Martin Marmoutier
six churches in Guernsey, and Neel III confirmed.
They had been his churches - see above. Marmoutier abbey was dedicated to
Saint Martin but is not given both names.
1049: Neel IV suppressed the Collegiate Church, and
replaced it with an Abbay for the Benedictines.
Three decades later, ca 1080, Néel II founded the Benedictine abbey of
Saint-Sauveur - see Delisle, op cit, pièces justificatives no. 38 p. 42.
1050: Neel IV led an attack of Angers.
What is the source for this?
There are two more Neels to discuss - Neel V and Neel
VI. These individuals will be addressed over the
period 1050-1150.If the two subscribers who expressed
interest in the St Sauveur family have any questions,
I will be happy to respond.
Perhaps you could respond to the points I have raised before ploughing on.
In the interests of genuine enquiry regarding this family, I hope your
sources will be properly revealed and the next instalment will be withheld
until some progress is at least attempted.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Neel de St Sauveur
paul bulkley wrote:
There is no evidence that Niel of St. Sauveur was identical to Nigel of
Halton, from whom many Cheshire families claim descent. Further, there
is no evidence for this Vernon marriage (note that in your other post
you marry Niel to a daughter of William).
taf
Neel III married a daughter of Duke Robert of Normandy
(great great grand daughter of Richard Duke of
Normandy), and if this is correct presumably a sister
of William I of England. Children included Neel IV of
Halton and possibly a daughter who married William de
Vernon.
There is no evidence that Niel of St. Sauveur was identical to Nigel of
Halton, from whom many Cheshire families claim descent. Further, there
is no evidence for this Vernon marriage (note that in your other post
you marry Niel to a daughter of William).
taf