Neel de St Sauveur

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paul bulkley

Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av paul bulkley » 17 jul 2005 21:45:02

The Saint Sauveurs of the Contentin (900-1000):

The Saint Sauveurs were a family of some significance,
and some of their activities were well remembered.

It is understood that in 896 AD a small group appeared
in the Seine led by a chief named Hundeus. The
conventional domination of the locals took place in
the Basse-Seine area, and finally this group settled
down in Choisy-au-Bac. The group's leader was baptised
that Easter by Charles the Simple, and that man is
considered to have been the uncle of the Rollo
mentioned by William de Jumieges (H.Prentout P.120)

About 912 the King of France recognised Rollo as Duke
of the territory in which this group had established
itself. The territory of Saint Saviour in the
Contentin was granted to Rollo's cousin Richard
(Gustave Dupont P146). The island of Guernsey was
divided between Briquebec and St Sauveur, the latter
holding S.Peter Port, S.Andrew, S.Martin, S.Sampson,
in the forest and Torteval (G.D.P174)

Gerville, a member of the Antiquarian Society of
Normandy wrote in 1824 that there was a grant dated
912 written in latin. It conveyed a holding with an
obligation of homage and military service. This
holding comprised of a grant of St Sauveur with
considerable dependancies including Nehou, which at
that time consisted of woods, marshes, and arid land
situated in the Contentin near the River Ouve
(Gerville P.279)

Richard immediately built his castle, and added
thereto in 913 AD a Chapel which was consecrated by
Herbert Bishop of Coutances, and dedicated to the Holy
Trinity and Saint Sauveur.

During the life of Richard, his son Neel (Nigel)
received a grant of Nehou. The word Nehou is a
contraction of Neel and Hou (i.e. Nigel's Home)

Before 933, William Longue-Epee granted to Neel I half
the Isle of Guernsey "in beneficio", and Rolf de
Bayeux the other half. However in 933 AD Rolf
participated in a rebellion, and his half interest in
Guernsey was taken from him, and given to Neel I
(Histoire des Isles de la Manche by Pegot Ogier)

938 William Longue-Epee created Neel I Viscount of the
Contentin, hereditary to his family, and gave his
barony the title of Saint Saviour the Viscount.

942 Charter - Neel I granted woods in Sark to the
monks of Mount S.Michael (Gerville P279).

Neel I's son Richard II eventually became lord of St
Sauveur and Nehou, viscount of the Contentin, and lord
of Guernsey. Little is recorded of this individual. He
had a son Roger I.

998. Richard II established a Collegiate Church at St
Sauveur endowing it with four prebendaries. (Gerville
P280). Hugh Bishop of the diocese of Coutances
confirmed its foundation (Histoire des Evequaes de
Coutances - M.Lecanu P116)

Richard II died soon after, and his son Roger I
completed the foundation.

Roger I was living the latter half of the 900s, and
died about 1014. Family pedigree claims that Roger's
wife was a daughter of Duke Richard I, and that she
probably was widow of a Sire de Creully. Their son and
heir was Neel II.

It is said that Hamon-aux-Dents was the uterine
brother of Roger's son Neel, and it is also claimed
that both families St Sauveur amd Creully were closely
connected to the ducal line of Normandy (Pegot-Ogier,
M.Le Cointe, Gustave Dupont)

It is not difficult to accept these claims because of
the high position held by Neel II in the Duchy. And
Hamon-aux-Dents was the ancestor of Mathilda (wife) of
Robert Earl of Gloucester, the natural son of Henry I.

1002. Neel II fought the English at Barfleur. The Duke
rewarded him a large sum (Benoit ii 415)

NOTE: I have not had the opportunity to examine most
of the sources given. Any confirmation of source
material would be appreciated.

The next material will address the Saint Sauveurs of
the Contentine (1000-1050)

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley

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Peter Stewart

Re: Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 02:31:03

Comments interspersed:

"paul bulkley" <designeconomic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20050717194402.4390.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
The Saint Sauveurs of the Contentin (900-1000):

The Saint Sauveurs were a family of some significance,
and some of their activities were well remembered.

It is understood that in 896 AD a small group appeared
in the Seine led by a chief named Hundeus. The
conventional domination of the locals took place in
the Basse-Seine area, and finally this group settled
down in Choisy-au-Bac. The group's leader was baptised
that Easter by Charles the Simple, and that man is
considered to have been the uncle of the Rollo
mentioned by William de Jumieges (H.Prentout P.120)

The Norman leader Hundeus was baptised at Easter in 897 (25 March). This
happened at Denain in the diocese of Arras according to Bernard von Simson
in his edition of 'Annales Vedastini', MGH SSrG 12 (1909) p. 79 ("Karolus
vero Hundeum ad se deductum Duninio monasterio in pascha eum de sacro fonte
suscepit") and ibid note 7. However, Stéphane Coviaux, 'Baptême et
conversion des chefs scandinaves du IXe au XIe siècle', _Les fondations
scandinaves en Occident et les débuts du duché de Normandie_ (Caen, 2005) p.
80 identified the monastery differently, placing this event at Clingen in
the diocese of Speyer. In any case, his followers had ravaged along the
Meuse, not the Seine.

I don't know any basis for making Hundeus into an uncle of Rollo - this is
not from William of Jumièges as far as I recall. Certainly Dudo said nothing
of the sort, and he was the main source for subsequent medieval historians
of Normandy regarding Rollo.

The reference I suppose is to Henri Prentout's _Essai sur les origines et la
fondation du duché de Normandie_ (1911). Perhaps you can tell us what this
has to say - if not, perhaps you will tell us where you found the reference.
As it is, the research is presented as your own, but with the curious
disclaimer that you have not "had the opportunity to examine most of the
sources given". The conventional thing to do in these circumstances is to
cite the work/s where the references have been found and where the
bibliographic details can be checked.

If you won't do us this basic courtesy, how can you expect anyone to help
you?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 04:20:09

I meant to go with this before, but was side-tracked - amongst other more
interesting things - by the nuisance that Richardson has chosen to make of
himself for the newsgroup. Comments, this time, interspersed:

"paul bulkley" <designeconomic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20050717194402.4390.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
The Saint Sauveurs of the Contentin (900-1000):

The Saint Sauveurs were a family of some significance,
and some of their activities were well remembered.

<snip regarding Hundeus, already addressed>

About 912 the King of France recognised Rollo as Duke
of the territory in which this group had established
itself. The territory of Saint Saviour in the
Contentin was granted to Rollo's cousin Richard
(Gustave Dupont P146). The island of Guernsey was
divided between Briquebec and St Sauveur, the latter
holding S.Peter Port, S.Andrew, S.Martin, S.Sampson,
in the forest and Torteval (G.D.P174)

The inadequate reference is presumably to Gustave Dupont's _Histoire du
Cotentin et de ses îles_, 4 vols (Caen, 1870-1885). I haven't seen this but
have no reason to suppose that he called anyone a "cousin" to Rollo. Is this
an assumption borrowed from somewhere else, or is the claim directly
attributed to Dupont?

Gerville, a member of the Antiquarian Society of
Normandy wrote in 1824 that there was a grant dated
912 written in latin. It conveyed a holding with an
obligation of homage and military service. This
holding comprised of a grant of St Sauveur with
considerable dependancies including Nehou, which at
that time consisted of woods, marshes, and arid land
situated in the Contentin near the River Ouve
(Gerville P.279)

I can't find any work of Charles de Gerville published in 1824 - perhaps the
date is a typo and the reference is to his _Etudes géographiques et
historiques sur le département de la Manche_ (Cherbourg, 1854). Again, I
haven't seen this. However, given the (contentious) claim above that Rollo
was recognised as "duke" in Normandy "about 912", I assume this refers to a
supposed charter of his. There is no such document: according to Marie
Fauroux in her edition _Recueil des actes des ducs de Normandie de 911 à
1066_ (Caen, 1961), the earliest charter occurrence of a Norman ruler in any
territory held by Rollo is a subscription by his grandson Richard I to a
royal diploma of 963/4. The earliest documents relating to Saint-Sauveur
included in Léopold Delisle's _Histoire du château et des sires de
Saint-Sauveur-le-vicomte (Valognes, 1867) are dated ca 1015.

Richard immediately built his castle, and added
thereto in 913 AD a Chapel which was consecrated by
Herbert Bishop of Coutances, and dedicated to the Holy
Trinity and Saint Sauveur.

During the life of Richard, his son Neel (Nigel)
received a grant of Nehou. The word Nehou is a
contraction of Neel and Hou (i.e. Nigel's Home)

Before 933, William Longue-Epee granted to Neel I half
the Isle of Guernsey "in beneficio", and Rolf de
Bayeux the other half. However in 933 AD Rolf
participated in a rebellion, and his half interest in
Guernsey was taken from him, and given to Neel I
(Histoire des Isles de la Manche by Pegot Ogier)

938 William Longue-Epee created Neel I Viscount of the
Contentin, hereditary to his family, and gave his
barony the title of Saint Saviour the Viscount.

Delisle begins his account cited above by stating that the earliest viscount
of the Contentin in surviving records was named Roger, who lived under
William Longsword's son Richard I (died 996) and is known only for having
founded the church which later became the Benedictine abbey of
Saint-Sauveur.

942 Charter - Neel I granted woods in Sark to the
monks of Mount S.Michael (Gerville P279).

Again according to Delisle, Néel I died ca 1040/2, a remarkable tale of
longevity if he was already granting charters a full century earlier.

It doesn't get any better: I will take this up again later when I have more
time.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 06:54:20

"paul bulkley" <designeconomic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20050717194402.4390.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com...
The Saint Sauveurs of the Contentin (900-1000):

The Saint Sauveurs were a family of some significance,
and some of their activities were well remembered.

<snip>

Before 933, William Longue-Epee granted to Neel I half
the Isle of Guernsey "in beneficio", and Rolf de
Bayeux the other half. However in 933 AD Rolf
participated in a rebellion, and his half interest in
Guernsey was taken from him, and given to Neel I
(Histoire des Isles de la Manche by Pegot Ogier)

This reference is at least clearer: properly this is Pégot-Ogier's _Histoire
des îles de la Manche, Jersey, Guernesey, Aurigny, Serck_ (Paris, 1881). As
noted before from the fully documented history by Léopold Delisle, Néel I
died ca 1040 and could not have been granted half of Guernsey before 933.

<snip>

Neel I's son Richard II eventually became lord of St
Sauveur and Nehou, viscount of the Contentin, and lord
of Guernsey. Little is recorded of this individual. He
had a son Roger I.

998. Richard II established a Collegiate Church at St
Sauveur endowing it with four prebendaries. (Gerville
P280). Hugh Bishop of the diocese of Coutances
confirmed its foundation (Histoire des Evequaes de
Coutances - M.Lecanu P116)

Richard II died soon after, and his son Roger I
completed the foundation.

But your "Richard II" of the Cotentin is supposed to have been living in
998, wheras the church of Saint-Sauveur was founded before the death of
Richard I, count or duke of the Normans, in 996.

The proof given by Delisle is a panchart of Algar, bishop of Coutances ca
1136 stating that the church of Saint-Sauveur had been founded by a Viscount
Roger in the time of Count Richard I ("ecclesia Sancti Salvatoris...a
tempore vetuli Ricardi comitis et Rogeri vicecomitis, qui ecclesiam
inchoavit et liberam eam construxit") [op cit, pièces justificatives no. 48
p. 59].

Roger I was living the latter half of the 900s, and
died about 1014. Family pedigree claims that Roger's
wife was a daughter of Duke Richard I, and that she
probably was widow of a Sire de Creully. Their son and
heir was Neel II.

But Dudo, who met Richard I and worshipped the ground beneath his feet,
carefully recorded all of the "holy" duke's offspring: two sons and as many
daughters by unnamed concubines, no children at all by his first wife Emma
(despite the unsustainable speculations of Katherine Keats-Rohan about
this), then five sons and three many daughters by his mistress & second wife
Gunnora. The connection of the ducal family to Saint-Sauveur may have been
that Néel I married a daughter of Count Robert of Mortain (or Avranches) by
his first wife Bilihildis, but this is not certain.

Néel II was a son of Néel I, not of Roger - see Delisle, no. 9 p. 11 "Signum
Nielli vicecomitis. Signum Nielli, filii ejus").

It is said that Hamon-aux-Dents was the uterine
brother of Roger's son Neel, and it is also claimed
that both families St Sauveur amd Creully were closely
connected to the ducal line of Normandy (Pegot-Ogier,
M.Le Cointe, Gustave Dupont)

It is not difficult to accept these claims because of
the high position held by Neel II in the Duchy. And
Hamon-aux-Dents was the ancestor of Mathilda (wife) of
Robert Earl of Gloucester, the natural son of Henry I.

This is incomprehensible: there may be many other explanations of the role
of Néel II, not least from the high position consolidated by his father as
one of the governors of Normandy during the minority of William the Bastard
(Conqueror-to-be). How the marriage of another man's descendant to a royal
bastard makes for plausibility here I don't understand.

1002. Neel II fought the English at Barfleur. The Duke
rewarded him a large sum (Benoit ii 415)

Néel II was still described as young in a charter of Duke William of
1035/48, see Fauroux no. 111 p. 272 "Niewllus juvenis" - scarcely credible
if the man was fighting as early as 1002.

NOTE: I have not had the opportunity to examine most
of the sources given. Any confirmation of source
material would be appreciated.

The next material will address the Saint Sauveurs of
the Contentine (1000-1050)

Perhaps it would be advisable to check your references before posting
again - these people have been dead for most of a millennium, so there's not
exactly a rush over their details, real or illusory.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jul 2005 16:10:02

In a message dated 7/19/2005 5:46:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


Perhaps you could respond to the points I have raised before ploughing on.
In the interests of genuine enquiry regarding this family, I hope your
sources will be properly revealed and the next instalment will be withheld
until some progress is at least attempted.

Peter Stewart

Hopefully we will see a re-statement of the post with all of Peter's
corrections and additions so stated along with sources. Now that would be something
really useful.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Neel de St Sauveur

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 jul 2005 22:37:37

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:203.5e3841c.300e636d@aol.com...
In a message dated 7/19/2005 5:46:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


Perhaps you could respond to the points I have raised before ploughing
on.
In the interests of genuine enquiry regarding this family, I hope your
sources will be properly revealed and the next instalment will be
withheld
until some progress is at least attempted.

Peter Stewart

Hopefully we will see a re-statement of the post with all of Peter's
corrections and additions so stated along with sources. Now that would be
something
really useful.

What corrections or additions are you unable to link to sources?

Peter Stewart

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