"black gentiles"

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"black gentiles"

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 20:48:02

The Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur identifies a group called the "black gentiles."
Dates begin 850 and run throughout a series of years after. One translator
identifies this group as the "Danes". Any thoughts on the origin of this
term, and why they were called "black gentiles." ? Jerry. The Jones
Genealogist.

hughw36

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av hughw36 » 17 jul 2005 15:20:57

This classification of vikings is quite well known in that historical
field

To this day there are more brunette haired swedes and norwegians than
most people realise, and in modern Denmark most blondes are bleaching
their hair from their mid teens, when the typical white-blonde hair of
childhood usually darkens - unless blue eyed pale skinned types.
(Often seen in Jutland and the Netherlands)

North of old saxony, where they spoke saxon or low (lands) german,
plat deutsch,

To the north from Slesvig to Greenland or Vineland
they spoke den danske sprog - the danish language - which was
identical in case and gender structure and grammar to modern high
german or icelandic.

Today it is called norron or old danish
see also
Otto Kalkar: Ordbog til det ældre danske sprog
on line in Norway because the norwegian archives were written in the
danish of the ruling classes.

Modern scotch / scottish has very many scandinavian words and
pronounciations in it too possibly from norwegian settlers - see place
names too
eg
kirk = church and *moose* (= mouse or *mus* in all scandinavian
languiges exceopt finnish house = hus and out = ud )

almost a FAQ topic

Hugh W
-

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Gjest

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 02:47:02

Thanks for the comments. Does this mean that the term black refered to the
color of hair, skin, eyes, etc? How does the term "gentile" come in to play?
It seems that the writer of 850 AD in the latin would have used the term
"pagen"? Jerry.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 19 jul 2005 09:26:26

Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:
Thanks for the comments. Does this mean that the term black refered to the
color of hair, skin, eyes, etc?

Well, as the term appears to have been used to distinguish the new set
of vikings from the old ones, the White Gentiles, and yet another was
used for the next batch, the Green ones (Normans), one might have a bit
of a problem coming up with a unified theory based on hair, skin, or
eyes (and considering the heterogeneity of most medieval armies, it is
unlikely that any characteristic applied to any of the three groups
across the board). The same (even more so) applies to a description of
armor, as has also been suggested.

How does the term "gentile" come in to play?

Well, attacking monasteries is a good way to get remembered as
non-Christians. Particularly in a country which served as the lone
western bastion of Christianity.

It seems that the writer of 850 AD in the latin would have used the term
"pagen"?

Why? Anyhow, are you sure the source of this translated term was a
Latin text, and not a vernacular one. I have seen the term rendered as
Foreigners in some discussions of the issue, and I doubt such ambiguity
would have been found in Latin.

The meaning of this "Black Gentiles/Foreigners" term has been debated
for a couple centuries at least, and most of the explanations are
nothing but wild guesses and wannabe theories. Any esplanation based on
shared physical characteristics faces a tough challenge in the face of
the expected heterogeneity.

The best theory I have seen that does not rely on a physical
characteristic is that of Smyth, who found examples in medieval Irish
pedigrees where the same adjectives used to describe the White and the
Black Gentiles were used, respectively, to describe the elder and
younger of two people within a pedigree with the same given name. He
also finds in an old Irish dictionary (which is why I asked about the
language - this would be pointless if it was a Latin original) that
"Old" was an obsolete meaning of the adjective now translated as
"White". Based on this, he suggests that the terms "White" and "Black"
are being used for Old Foreigners and New Foreigners (just as Green
Foreigners for the Normans is thought to be using the color, as in new
growth of plants, as another term for "New", the two earlier groups now
both "old" by comparison).

taf

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 19 jul 2005 12:30:08

In article <dbidfl$fjl$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>,
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:
Thanks for the comments. Does this mean that the term black refered to the
color of hair, skin, eyes, etc?

Well, as the term appears to have been used to distinguish the new set
of vikings from the old ones, the White Gentiles, and yet another was
used for the next batch, the Green ones (Normans), one might have a bit
of a problem coming up with a unified theory based on hair, skin, or
eyes (and considering the heterogeneity of most medieval armies, it is
unlikely that any characteristic applied to any of the three groups
across the board). The same (even more so) applies to a description of
armor, as has also been suggested.

How does the term "gentile" come in to play?

Well, attacking monasteries is a good way to get remembered as
non-Christians. Particularly in a country which served as the lone
western bastion of Christianity.

'Gentile' was often used in medieval Latin texts, especially by monastic
writers, to describe non-Christians (including Muslims, etc.)--by
analogy to its old-Testament use for non-Jews. Famous examples can be
found in the chronicles of the first crusade, especially the _Gesta Dei
per Francos_ of Guibert de Nogent. The irony there is that many of the
first crusaders targeted European Jews as acceptable--even
necessary--targets, hence the Rhineland pogroms of 1096.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jul 2005 16:15:02

Thanks again for the comments. As best as I have been able to determine, The
Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur was written by monks of Strata Florida sometime
after the year 823 AD. They identify in their chronology 823 AD, that "Brother
Nennius compiled his book". This is reference to Historia Brittonum, written
according to Neninius, "...in the 858th year of our Lord's incarnation, and in
the 24th year of Mervin, king of the Britons..." In his prologue Neninius
writes, "...I have presumed to deliver these things in the Latin tongue, not
trusting to my own learning...". This would indicate to me that the text was
written in Latin. Since the monks of Ystrad Fflur (Strata Florida) had read a
copy and included it into their chronology, I would assume they saw Latin as
their primary language of record. However, these same monks recorded the Brut
y Tywysogion (Chronicles of The Princes) in the Welsh vernacular several
centuries later. This was a period of early Welsh language, and I suppose Welsh
could have been used, but I wonder if written in Welsh, it would have limited
its readership in the churches of Ireland, Scotland, France, etc.

Where the colors "White", "Black" and "Green" used in a chronological
order?
Were the "White Gentiles", followed in sequence by the "Black Gentiles",
followed by the "Green Gentiles"? Do you mean White = Vikings, Black = Danes,
Green = Norman? Thanks, Jerry.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 19 jul 2005 16:28:30

Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:

Where the colors "White", "Black" and "Green" used in a chronological
order?
Were the "White Gentiles", followed in sequence by the "Black Gentiles",
followed by the "Green Gentiles"? Do you mean White = Vikings, Black = Danes,
Green = Norman? Thanks, Jerry.

White, Black and Green were used to refer to invaders who arrived in
that order. I will have to dig out the details, but I don't think the
first group were called White until the arrival of the second group made
it necessary to distinguish. By modern usage, both White and Black were
Vikings, and Green, Normans. It is generally thought that the first
group were primarily Norwegian, the second Danish.

taf

Glyn Jones

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Glyn Jones » 19 jul 2005 17:30:03

Brehinoedd Y Saeson (The Kings Of the Saxons) was written in Latin,
originally, and translated into Welsh later. Thomas Jones, who translated
the Welsh text of the Red Book of Hergest version into English, said he
could find no evidence that this verion of Brut was translated from Latin to
Welsh at Strata Florida. This had come from J. Gwenogvryn Evans.

Glyn

Glyn Jones FRPS
Remember Tryweryn
Join the Royal Photographic Society

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jonesgenealogist@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: "black gentiles"


However, these same monks recorded the Brut
y Tywysogion (Chronicles of The Princes) in the Welsh vernacular several
centuries later. This was a period of early Welsh language, and I
suppose Welsh
could have been used, but I wonder if written in Welsh, it would have
limited
its readership in the churches of Ireland, Scotland, France, etc.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: "Black Gentiles"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 jul 2005 18:51:01

No, not ironic at all -- given the World View of the Crusaders.

DSH

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-02ED1C.07335419072005@news1.east.earthlink.net...

|...The irony there is that many of the
| first crusaders targeted European Jews as acceptable--even
| necessary--targets, hence the Rhineland pogroms of 1096.
|
| Nat Taylor

Gjest

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jul 2005 20:58:01

Hello Glyn. I would certainly want to trust these "giants" in the field of
Welsh study. But, do you mean there is no evidence of the writing occuring at
Starta Florida or there is no evidence that the Brut was ever written in
Latin? Do you have any opinion regarding the writers of the Chronicles? According
to V. Eirwen Davies and Gwerfyl Moss, in The Welsh Language, it was probable
that Welsh was spoken by the 6th Century, but only a few writings are found,
and then not until the 9th century. It was also the language of the laws of
Hywel Dda and some Welsh poetry, all occuring after 900 AD. Jerry.

Ginny Wagner

RE: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 19 jul 2005 21:19:01

<it was probable
that Welsh was spoken by the 6th Century, but only a few writings are found,
and then not until the 9th century. It was also the language of the laws of
Hywel Dda and some Welsh poetry, all occuring after 900 AD.>

From Celtic Mysteries, John Sharkey: "And, much like the prohibitions laid
on the Celtic warrior heroes, which predestined their lives and actions, the
taboo on writing continued as long as the old religion lasted." Which, I
think, would explain the dearth of early written history from the
Welsh/Irish/Celts. Ginny

siabair ~^~

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av siabair ~^~ » 19 jul 2005 21:55:37

"Ginny Wagner" wrote:
From Celtic Mysteries, John Sharkey: "And, much like the
prohibitions laid on the Celtic warrior heroes, which predestined
their lives and actions, the taboo on writing continued as long as
the old religion lasted." Which, I think, would explain the dearth
of early written history from the Welsh/Irish/Celts.

Beware of books with titles such as 'Celtic Mysteries'! There are abundant
and continuous historical sources relating to early medieval Ireland. If
you are looking for a dearth of historical sources then I suggest you
consider post-Roman Britain where there is not much to be said for the
period between Gildas and Bede or between Bede and the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle unless you are willing to suspend disbelief. I suspect that much
of early medieval Europe is likewise.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost', 'phantom', 'spectre'

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: "black gentiles"

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 20 jul 2005 04:03:29

Jonesgenealogist@aol.com wrote:
Thanks again for the comments. As best as I have been able to determine, The
Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur was written by monks of Strata Florida sometime
after the year 823 AD.

A good while after his date. Ystrad Fflur was not founded until 1136, by
which point their working material easily could have been taken
from/influenced by the Annals of Ulster, which record the 851 fighting
between the Dub Gaill and the Finn Gaill (Black Foreigners and White
Foreigners), and probably the source for the "War of the Irish with the
Scandinavians", which mentions "Duibgeinti Danardi" (Danish Black
Gentiles). I suspect Irish was the original language of this
characterization, not Latin or Welsh.

taf

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