Medieval Mysteries

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Leo van de Pas

Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 jul 2005 02:05:02

The for once exellent post of Douglas Richardson made me add another line to the ancestry of Prince William and this also brought a few questions.

CP Volume V Page 80 gives a pretty good descent from Sir John Engaine and following the line to the Broughton family we find :

Sir Robert Broughton of Toddington. Aged 23 or more in 1489. His (I presume elder) brother was born 27 February 1464, which makes me presume Sir Robert was born about 1465/1466.

Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August 1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate daughter of John, Earl of Oxford, she was alive when the will was written, but she is recorded as a first wife. This gives a two year period in which Katherine dies, Sir Robert remarries and dies himself.
Who would have been that second wife?

The other mystery is Katherine's father. Which John, Earl of Oxford is her father?
I have a John 12th Earl who lived from 1408 to 1462, and his son the 13th Earl who lived from 1442 to 1513. Both of an age to produce a girl born, say, 1462-1465 (or later if she is a daughter of the son) and still of an age to marry Sir Robert Broughton.

The ancestry of Katherine is important, not just because she is an ancestor of Prince William and many others, but because she descends from several Magna Carta Sureties as well as from King Edward I of England.

Can anyone identify who is the father of Katherine?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 03:05:02

In a message dated 7/15/05 5:04:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August 1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate daughter
of John, Earl of Oxford, >>

Is this John, 13th Earl who d 10 Mar 1513 Castle Hedingham ?
Or is it John, 12th Earl who d 26 Feb 1462/3 beheaded, Tower of London?

Thanks
Will

Leo

Re: Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 03:45:01

Dear Wil,
Ignore their numerals. John 1408-1462 and his son John 1442-1513 are the
ones.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Medieval Mysteries


In a message dated 7/15/05 5:04:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August 1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate
daughter
of John, Earl of Oxford,

Is this John, 13th Earl who d 10 Mar 1513 Castle Hedingham ?
Or is it John, 12th Earl who d 26 Feb 1462/3 beheaded, Tower of London?

Thanks
Will


Gjest

Re: Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 03:59:02

In a message dated 7/15/05 6:44:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leo@home.netspeed.com.au writes:

<< > << Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August 1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate
daughter
of John, Earl of Oxford,

Is this John, 13th Earl who d 10 Mar 1513 Castle Hedingham ?
Or is it John, 12th Earl who d 26 Feb 1462/3 beheaded, Tower of London?

Leo what I'm asking is you say that Katherine was daughter of John, Earl of
Oxford.
But you do not specify WHICH John Earl of Oxford :)
There were two that could possibly fit.
Which one is it?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Leo

Re: Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 05:16:03

That was my question :-) Which John is the father of Katherine. I would
love to know :-)
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Medieval Mysteries


In a message dated 7/15/05 6:44:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leo@home.netspeed.com.au writes:

Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August
1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate
daughter
of John, Earl of Oxford,

Is this John, 13th Earl who d 10 Mar 1513 Castle Hedingham ?
Or is it John, 12th Earl who d 26 Feb 1462/3 beheaded, Tower of London?


Leo what I'm asking is you say that Katherine was daughter of John, Earl
of
Oxford.
But you do not specify WHICH John Earl of Oxford :)
There were two that could possibly fit.
Which one is it?
Thanks
Will Johnson


James C. Woodard

Re: Medieval Mysteries

Legg inn av James C. Woodard » 18 jul 2005 03:03:23

leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in
news:000e01c58999$daef13b0$0300a8c0@Toshiba:

The for once exellent post of Douglas Richardson made me add another
line to the ancestry of Prince William and this also brought a few
questions.

CP Volume V Page 80 gives a pretty good descent from Sir John Engaine
and following the line to the Broughton family we find :

Sir Robert Broughton of Toddington. Aged 23 or more in 1489. His (I
presume elder) brother was born 27 February 1464, which makes me presume
Sir Robert was born about 1465/1466.

Sir Robert made his will on 20 June 1504 and he died 10 August 1506.
So far so good. His wife is shown to be Katherine, an illegitimate
daughter of John, Earl of Oxford, she was alive when the will was
written, but she is recorded as a first wife. This gives a two year
period in which Katherine dies, Sir Robert remarries and dies himself.
Who would have been that second wife?

The other mystery is Katherine's father. Which John, Earl of Oxford is
her father? I have a John 12th Earl who lived from 1408 to 1462, and his
son the 13th Earl who lived from 1442 to 1513. Both of an age to produce
a girl born, say, 1462-1465 (or later if she is a daughter of the son)
and still of an age to marry Sir Robert Broughton.

The ancestry of Katherine is important, not just because she is an
ancestor of Prince William and many others, but because she descends
from several Magna Carta Sureties as well as from King Edward I of
England.

Can anyone identify who is the father of Katherine?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



Hi, Leo. Long time no see. As the Father was tried for treason and
executed Feb 26, 1462, I'd lean toward the son. If she was born in 1462
she would have been a minimum of two years her husband's senor. Less
likely than that she was of an age with or younger than her husband. I'd
say that the percentages argue for the son.



--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net

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