Knights of the Garter

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Leo van de Pas

Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 15 jul 2005 10:42:01

Knowing very little about the aspects of the Knights of the Garter, there are some things I do not understand.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm

Here is a list of the knights and ladies of the Garter.

What establishes a persons number on this list? For instance nr. 615 John Fane, 10th Earl of Westmorland shows nr 615 (inv.1801). But when you go to CP you find he is elected K.G. 12 June 1793 which could have made him nr. 596. He was invested 14 January 1795 and installed 29 May 1801.

nr.606 (inv.1801) Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort
nr.607 (inv 1801) George Nugent-Temple-Grenville
nr.608 (inv 1801) Charles 2nd Earl Cornwallis
nr.609 (app.1788) John Frederick Sackville, 3rd Duke of Dorset

nr.153 (inv.1438) Albrecht Duke of Austria (not installed)
nr.168 (inv 1450) Kazimier IV King of Poland (Not installed, but placed here in 1467.

What is the difference between invested and installed?
nr.172 (inv 1453) Sir Edward Hull, slain in 1453 before being installed.

Does anyone know the procedure? One is elected/selected and what happens then, invest or instal, in which order and what do they mean?

Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Marcus Aurelius

Re: Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av Marcus Aurelius » 16 jul 2005 03:11:03

I am a member of the Society of Descendants of Knights of the Most Noble
Order of the Garter.
The following is a quote from the brochure which accompanied my membership
acceptance:
"Highest Order of Knighthood
The order was instituted by King Edward III, some time between 1344 and
1350, the uncertainty in date arising from the early loss of all its
original records. It is now, as always, comprised of the Sovereign, the
Prince of Wales, twenty-five Knight Companions, and such foreign Sovereigns
as may be chosen. It has ever ranked as the highest dignity of knighthood in
the world. Included in the insignia of the Order is a blue ribbon of velvet
edged with gold and having a gold buckle. The pendant represents St. George
slaying the dragon, and the certificate bears the same well-known insignia
with the motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Dishonored be he who thinks ill
of it)."
End of Quote
My real name is not Marcus Aurelius

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 jul 2005 19:55:40

In message of 16 Jul, geb@gordonbanks.com (Gordon Banks) wrote:

What does your society do?

It pays for special projects for maintenance of St George's Chapel,
Windsor:

http://www.stgeorges-windsor.org/friends/fri_index.asp


On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 02:11 +0000, Marcus Aurelius wrote:
I am a member of the Society of Descendants of Knights of the Most Noble
Order of the Garter.
The following is a quote from the brochure which accompanied my membership
acceptance:
"Highest Order of Knighthood
The order was instituted by King Edward III, some time between 1344
and 1350, the uncertainty in date arising from the early loss of
all its original records. It is now, as always, comprised of the
Sovereign, the Prince of Wales, twenty-five Knight Companions, and
such foreign Sovereigns as may be chosen. It has ever ranked as
the highest dignity of knighthood in the world. Included in the
insignia of the Order is a blue ribbon of velvet edged with gold
and having a gold buckle. The pendant represents St. George
slaying the dragon, and the certificate bears the same well-known
insignia with the motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Dishonored be
he who thinks ill of it)." End of Quote
My real name is not Marcus Aurelius



--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gordon Banks

Re: Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 16 jul 2005 20:50:02

What does your society do?

On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 02:11 +0000, Marcus Aurelius wrote:
I am a member of the Society of Descendants of Knights of the Most Noble
Order of the Garter.
The following is a quote from the brochure which accompanied my membership
acceptance:
"Highest Order of Knighthood
The order was instituted by King Edward III, some time between 1344 and
1350, the uncertainty in date arising from the early loss of all its
original records. It is now, as always, comprised of the Sovereign, the
Prince of Wales, twenty-five Knight Companions, and such foreign Sovereigns
as may be chosen. It has ever ranked as the highest dignity of knighthood in
the world. Included in the insignia of the Order is a blue ribbon of velvet
edged with gold and having a gold buckle. The pendant represents St. George
slaying the dragon, and the certificate bears the same well-known insignia
with the motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Dishonored be he who thinks ill
of it)."
End of Quote
My real name is not Marcus Aurelius

--

Gordon Banks <geb@gordonbanks.com>

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 jul 2005 22:08:34

In message of 15 Jul, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:

Knowing very little about the aspects of the Knights of the Garter,
there are some things I do not understand.

Rules are rules, except when they are changed. (Join the club, in
other words.)
`
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm

Here is a list of the knights and ladies of the Garter.

What establishes a persons number on this list? For instance nr. 615
John Fane, 10th Earl of Westmorland shows nr 615 (inv.1801). But when
you go to CP you find he is elected K.G. 12 June 1793 which could
have made him nr. 596. He was invested 14 January 1795 and installed
29 May 1801.

I'm not sure I follow that he should have been 596. Try this (as ever I
refer to Grace Holmes' little book "Th Order of the Garter" pub 1984):

<-------- Dates ---------->
Name No Nominated Invested Installed
==== == ========= ======== =========

Thomas Thynne 595 3 June 1778 (NA) 3 June 1778
William Henry 596 19 Apr 1783 (NA) 28 May 1801
Charles Lennox 597 19 Apr 1782 19 Apr 1782 29 May 1801

John Fane 615 12 June 1793 14 Jan 1795 29 May 1801

It look as as if the installation date is the key.

To add to the confusion, in 1953 it was decided that knights were to be
admitted to the order from the time that the Sovereign declares that
this is so, in advance of "any ceremonies of Investiture or Installation
heretofore required". Election ceremonies were also dispensed with from
1953.

nr.606 (inv.1801) Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort
nr.607 (inv 1801) George Nugent-Temple-Grenville
nr.608 (inv 1801) Charles 2nd Earl Cornwallis
nr.609 (app.1788) John Frederick Sackville, 3rd Duke of Dorset

nr.153 (inv.1438) Albrecht Duke of Austria (not installed)
nr.168 (inv 1450) Kazimier IV King of Poland (Not installed, but
placed here in 1467.

What is the difference between invested and installed?

No idea. And it seems that it is no longer relevant (above).

nr.172 (inv 1453) Sir Edward Hull, slain in 1453 before being installed.

Does anyone know the procedure? One is elected/selected and what
happens then, invest or instal, in which order and what do they mean?

Election had been purely nominal for centuries. For a long time the
sovereign merely proposed someone and the knights had to elect them.
Then the politicians got hold of the right of making appointments.
And, probably also in 1953, it reverted to being a sovereign's
appointment and was no longer a political event. So there is very
little procedure left at all, just the sovereign's fiat.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

James C. Woodard

Re: Knights of the Garter

Legg inn av James C. Woodard » 18 jul 2005 04:13:14

Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote in news:42068c8b4d.tim@south-
frm.demon.co.uk:

It look as as if the installation date is the key.


Except. I find number 620 Richard Howe was nominated and invested but not
installed and still has a number and for early members only the nomination
date is given. It looks like the rule determining order may have changed
over time. As you said, "Rules are rules, except when they change." :-)



--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net

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