The genealogical question now on the table is about Jeanne de Sabran,
apparently the only known wife of Niccolo Orsini, count of Nola. They
are relatively proximal ancestors of Jacquette de Luxembourg, and thus
of a considerable number of Anglo-American descendants--including,
apparently, my children.
Q: Was Jeanne de Sabran also known as 'Gorizia', or did Niccolo Orsini
have another wife by that name?
The name 'Gorizia' is explicitly associated with Jeanne de Sabran in her
entry, no. 1575, in Neil D. Thompson & Charles M. Hansen's "A Medieval
Heritage: the Ancestry of Charles II, King of England," _The
Genealogist_ 17 (2003), p. 251.
The entry in Thompson & Hansen was posted by Tony Hoskins here on 12
July [from Gen-Medieval-L post <s2d3efe9.023@CENTRAL_SVR2>]:
"1574. Niccolo Orsini, called "des Ursins," Count of Nola, [born] 27
August 1331, [died] Nola (after 14 February) 1399, ... [married] to
1575. Jeanne de Sabran, called "Gorizia," her testament dated 1357
[note 250].
One can make two observations on these brief passages: First, it appears
that Thompson & Hansen believe Jeanne de Sabran is the same as
'Gorizia'. Second, the wording is ambiguous, but perhaps a 1357
testament for this woman uses the name 'Gorizia'. But this is not
entirely clear: the entry does NOT say "called 'Gorizia' IN her
testament dated 1357."
Now, some days previously Douglas Richardson had posted a document
showing the count's wife as 'Johanna' [= Jeanne, Joan, Giovanna] in
1363. His reaction to Tony's post of the twelfth was to associate the
'Gorizia' mentioned by Thompson & Hansen with the 1357 testament (when
this is not entirely clear from the passage). Richardson also appears
to have thought the 1357 testament suggested that she had died about
that time. Earlier, in citing the on-line pedigree-index to Thompson &
Hansen, on the 'Foundation for Medieval Genealogy' website, Richardson
had misread the notation "d. a1357" to stand for "died about 1357" when
in fact it means "died after 1357."
Douglas Richardson wrote on 7 July [from article
1120764055.636132.181440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>]:
... the Graphical Index to the Ancestry of
Charles II found on helpful Foundations for Medieval Genealogy website
(
http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/9-12/24/393.htm) states that Jeanne
de Sabran died about 1357. This is also incorrect.
But the entry on the page Richardson cites reads simply "Jeanne de
Sabran ( -a1357)," and it is clear from the context that 'a' in the
date stands for 'after', not 'about': elsewhere on the same page 'c' is
used for 'circa'. Whether or not he was influenced by this mistaken
reading of the webpage (which one might call a quaternary source),
Douglas Richardson told Tony that he did not believe that 'Gorizia'
cited in 1357 could be the same as 'Jeanne' from 1363.
Richardson wrote on July 12 [from article
1121237685.369854.42920@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>]:
If Niccolo Orsini's wife was named Giovanna (or Joan) in 1363,
... why do you believe she is the same wife as Gorizia who
allegedly left a testament dated 1357?
Wouldn't there be two wives, one named Gorizia and one named Giovanna
de Sabran? What is your evidence that Count Niccolo had a wife
named Gorizia?
In fact when Tony posted the entry he had not been concerned about
'Gorizia' and expressed no opinion or belief about her: Tony had been
interested in the other alleged wife, Marie des Baux, who Thompson &
Hansen dispensed with in a footnote, also quoted by Tony. As posted by
Tony (in the same message cited above):
Note 250: Casanovas, _Henri IV 83, evidently following Litta,
incorrectly gives Niccolo Orsini a second wife, Marie des Baux [Balzo],
only child and heiress of Raymond des Baux, Count of Soleto, d.s.p. 5
Aug. 1375 (_ES_ [new ed.] 3:4:752), and by letters dated 18 Oct. 1375,
Queen Joanna of Naples granted John d'Arcussia di Capra, Count of
Minervino, the castle and bourgs which had reverted to the crown by the
death of Raymond, Count of Soleto, without legitimate issue, "to the
exclusion of Nicholas Orsini, Count Palatine and of Nola, his nephew,
who had himself acknowledged that he has no rights in the feudal goods
of his uncle' (Watson, "Seize Quartiers' [supra note 203], 12:248, n.
15)."
Now, this footnote explicitly deals with Marie des Baux. But Tony did
NOT post the source-paragraph corresponding to the data in entries
1574-1575, where one would expect to find the source of 'Gorizia' and
mention of the 1357 testament. Here are the sources listed for this
couple, on the same page of Thompson & Hansen's article, [_TG_ 17
(2003), 251] [adapted into a list for this post]:
6. Joannis 460, 524 [? = J-D Joannis, _Les seize quartiers genealogiques
des Capetiens, 4 vols. (Lyon, 1958-65)].
So: rather than continuing a long volley of rancor, is anyone interested
in the problem, and has access to any of these sources other than Turton?
By the way, 'Gorizia' is an old medieval town in the extreme northeast
of modern Italy, on the Slovene border between Trieste and Friuli. It
is nowhere near Sabran (Provence). I have no knowledge of it as a given
name, medieval or modern.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/FWIW I have the 4 volumes in 1 of No 6 above. Jeanne de Sabran is #15