IS THIS A MISSING BRANCH OF CAMERONS AND MARGARET STEWART

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archie campbell

IS THIS A MISSING BRANCH OF CAMERONS AND MARGARET STEWART

Legg inn av archie campbell » 10 jul 2005 01:41:43

question 1:While researching the LDS church site i put in the name Cameron
as it is
one of the names i am researching

i put just cameron in and went to
area put British Isle then scotland and then Bute for the isle of Bute

i came up with this

Ewen Cameron and Marjory born to them is

Janet Marie Cameron born 1589 isle of bute
Anna Cameron 1595 isle of bute
Ewen Cameron 1577 Isle of Bute this one could be Ewen himself
Finuall Cameron 1601 might possible be Fingal
Peggy cameron 1598 isle of bute no listing of Parents i believe peggy is of
the same branch

mine ancestors are
Peggy Cameron married in 1616 to Donald McKirdy IV of the isle of bute both
born on Bute in 1598
Both Donald McKirdy III and his son Fingal McKirdy both died in a Battle
for the Camerons as rumored in our history
ANY ONE FAMILUR WITH THIS

QUESTION 2:I see there is a Margaret Stewart in the Cameron history married
to john
dow cameron of Erracht

now is this the Daughter of King James IV and Margaret Drummond list as
Margret Jane Stewart

i was wondering if you might be able to help me or look in to it for me
it seens to match up good with the Camerons of Erracht
ANY ONE FAMILUR WITH THIS

Gjest

Cameron, (yields McCurdy), James IV and illegitimate childr

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jul 2005 02:26:37

Archie,
You write
"Peggy Cameron married in 1616 to Donald McKirdy IV of the isle of
bute both born on Bute in 1598 . Both Donald McKirdy III and his son
Fingal McKirdy both died in a Battle for the Camerons as rumored in
our history
ANY ONE FAMILUR WITH THIS "

I am very familiar with this. It appears in numerous books on the
McCurdy Family, all of which define Peggy as above and make her 'said
to be ggdtr' of James IV. It became important to me to identify the
first publication asserting the claim. I lost my data base last Oct and
have only the very pared down info I had placed regarding this
'portion' of the McCurdy line on my website (see
http://www.cynthiaswope.com/withinthevi ... epage.html
and its linked to page briefly discussing the romanticized, ill-defined
, and often regurgitatated 'McCurdy ancestor' Gilchrist and his
'progeny' including some of the figures you are describing, and
specifically Peggy Cameron ) so I have to work on memory for some of
this.

H. Percy Blanchard wrote several tomes on McCurdy history and as I
recall Peggy appeared briefly in two of them (for one of which see the
most recent: Blanchard, "The ancestral McCurdys, their origin and
remote history" London: The Covenant Pub. Co., 1930,(p.26)].
I believe that the 1930 tome echoed similar information published late
19th or very early 20th century by the same author in a separate work
the name of which currently escapes me. Both Rachel Larimer (The
Larimers, McAllisters and Allied Families) and Elmer McCurdy (Hist
Genealogy of the McCurdy Family) wrote of the McCurdys (she in 1903, he
before 1917) and certainly Elmer, and I think Rachel too, provide
similar "said to" kinds of lines. My point here is that at one time I
spent alot of time trying to get at the first published work that
purported this to see if ANY clues might exist there for original
source, and believe quite strongly that I concluded the original source
was Blanchard and that there were not. But again, i'm working from
memory.

This relationship of Peggy Cameron (Wife to Donald MacKirdy) is all
'said to be' stuff . Blanchard has her marrying in 1615 Isle of Bute
Scotland, and I believe that based on this 'date' (have you found
firmer proof of this marriage?) that her birth 'ca 1598 Isle of Bute'
as he proposes may have been formulated based on this marriage 'date'
and the 'date' of birth of her husband (given as same year same place).


QUESTION 1:
1)Have you found anything more concrete on this information (ie her
marriage) I've linked (hopefully correctly) as first appearing in
Blanchard's work?

You write:
" QUESTION...:I see there is a Margaret Stewart in the Cameron history
married to john dow cameron of Erracht"

My QUESTION 2:
What source is "the Cameron History" you mention. Is this the Cameron
History further defined on this page or is this a "general " cameron
history from uncited sources? I am VERY interested in this. Please give
a source to which I can refer!!!

You continue: "now is this the Daughter of King James IV and Margaret
Drummond list as Margret Jane Stewart "

I see where you are going here. It is again Blanchard in the tome
above who discusses Peggy Cameron as 'said to be' ggdtr of James IV
Scotland.
But this Margaret you mention appears to have married John Gordon,
eldest son of 3rd Lord Huntly (see Paul Moynagh's post in Subject
"James IV's bastards (was Churchillian Ancestry) " 23 Sept 2001 this
forum. I have not found reference for any other spouses for her, but I
think there are several people in this list who are interested in her
who I hope, but don't expect , are reading this and might be of help. I
do not know of a Cameron link for her, but have lost any (and that
nebulous) reference to her and her progeny for reasons outlined above.

More on Peggy , her purported husband and father in law

It is again Blanchard who is the source for the comment you make that
Peggy Cameron's McCurdy father in law and his own father 'died in
battle with the Camerons', and this succint comment was not clear to
me-was it for or against? It would make sense it would be for if
Peggy is correctly placed as wife, but, well, its best not to take
anything for granted.

Anyway, more importantly, at the end of the 16th century Clan Cameron
was embroiled in (longstanding) territorial dispute with Grant and
McIntosh, and "In 1598, a commission was granted to Huntly, Macintosh,
Grant of Freuchie, and others to apprehend Lochiel and all the chief
men of the clan for various crimes they had committed. The commission
was ineffective.....As a result, the Camerons invaded the Macintosh and
Grant lands and killed 'XLI of Macintoshes and XXIII tenants of Grant,
and hurt the Laird of Balendalough.' Other affrays followed, in one of
which fifty Camerons are said to have been killed. " (Col Sir Donald
Hamish Cameron of Lochiel, K.T., 26th Chief, "A History of Clan
Cameron' published by the Clan Cameron Association , 1971).

My QUESTION 3: I have not been succesful in finding an exact battle of
1600, do you know of one? Do you have any source besides Blanchard for
this 1600 death date in battle for these two generations McCurdy?

Blanchard did not discuss Peggy's ascendancy beyond his remark that she
is 'said to be great gddtr of James IV' . Peggy Cameron as this 'gddtr'
of the king has been nearly impossible to rule out or in....the progeny
of James IV is daunting-he having many known (not to mention any
unknown) illegitimate children (through his many women) and with two
generations to sort through, well, I was never succesful.

As an aside, it has occured to me that this 'relationship' of Peggy
Cameron to James IV as his GGdtr may be somehow born of a tortured
genealogy which showed up as oral tradition, involving but not
necessarily ascending to James IV. James IV's wife married two men
subsequently, Archibald Douglas 6th Lord Douglas which ended in divorce
and in 1518 living with another woman (haven't any progeny for him,
again I lost his specifics in that crash) and Henry Stewart, later Lord
Methven " by whom she had no offspring, though the contrary has been
asserted (and who) survived her some years.....he is stated to have had
children by Janet Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Atholl, whom he
married after Margaret's death. One of these children was mother of the
celebrated Earl of Gowrie, which has given rise to the absurd modern
hypothesis that the mother of Earl Gowrie was really daughter of Lord
Methven and Queen Margaret (Green, pp. 493-4; but cf. Reg. Mag. Sigill.
Scoti', 1546-80, Nos. 184-5,639-41, 1568)." [from DNB article on
her]

I have tried to figure out Peggy Cameron by finding SOME Cameron in the
two intervening 'generations' from James IV as you appear to be doing
-and have not been succesful, and I gave up, frankly, years ago, but
I don't exclude the necessity of examining the children of Methven and
his wife Jane Stewart as possibly holding the key to reference of
James IV as 'ancestor' for Peggy in order to put this thing to rest or
to test.

2)Have you found citation to something more concrete for this family
of Ewen Cameron and Marjory you mention in your post, and whose
children do not include her in the LDS file you accessed? It would be
interesting to at least see the source.

I would be very interested in any other information you have, or
suspicions you hold regarding Peggy. What have you got on the Camerons
of Erracht?



Cynthia Swope

Leo

Re: Cameron, (yields McCurdy), James IV and illegitimate ch

Legg inn av Leo » 12 jul 2005 03:51:01

I am fascinated by this ggdtr' of James IV. Has anyone established she is
and how?
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <alfonsa@cynthiaswope.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 11:26 AM
Subject: Cameron, (yields McCurdy), James IV and illegitimate children


Archie,
You write
"Peggy Cameron married in 1616 to Donald McKirdy IV of the isle of
bute both born on Bute in 1598 . Both Donald McKirdy III and his son
Fingal McKirdy both died in a Battle for the Camerons as rumored in
our history
ANY ONE FAMILUR WITH THIS "

I am very familiar with this. It appears in numerous books on the
McCurdy Family, all of which define Peggy as above and make her 'said
to be ggdtr' of James IV. It became important to me to identify the
first publication asserting the claim. I lost my data base last Oct and
have only the very pared down info I had placed regarding this
'portion' of the McCurdy line on my website (see
http://www.cynthiaswope.com/withinthevi ... epage.html
and its linked to page briefly discussing the romanticized, ill-defined
, and often regurgitatated 'McCurdy ancestor' Gilchrist and his
'progeny' including some of the figures you are describing, and
specifically Peggy Cameron ) so I have to work on memory for some of
this.

H. Percy Blanchard wrote several tomes on McCurdy history and as I
recall Peggy appeared briefly in two of them (for one of which see the
most recent: Blanchard, "The ancestral McCurdys, their origin and
remote history" London: The Covenant Pub. Co., 1930,(p.26)].
I believe that the 1930 tome echoed similar information published late
19th or very early 20th century by the same author in a separate work
the name of which currently escapes me. Both Rachel Larimer (The
Larimers, McAllisters and Allied Families) and Elmer McCurdy (Hist
Genealogy of the McCurdy Family) wrote of the McCurdys (she in 1903, he
before 1917) and certainly Elmer, and I think Rachel too, provide
similar "said to" kinds of lines. My point here is that at one time I
spent alot of time trying to get at the first published work that
purported this to see if ANY clues might exist there for original
source, and believe quite strongly that I concluded the original source
was Blanchard and that there were not. But again, i'm working from
memory.

This relationship of Peggy Cameron (Wife to Donald MacKirdy) is all
'said to be' stuff . Blanchard has her marrying in 1615 Isle of Bute
Scotland, and I believe that based on this 'date' (have you found
firmer proof of this marriage?) that her birth 'ca 1598 Isle of Bute'
as he proposes may have been formulated based on this marriage 'date'
and the 'date' of birth of her husband (given as same year same place).


QUESTION 1:
1)Have you found anything more concrete on this information (ie her
marriage) I've linked (hopefully correctly) as first appearing in
Blanchard's work?

You write:
" QUESTION...:I see there is a Margaret Stewart in the Cameron history
married to john dow cameron of Erracht"

My QUESTION 2:
What source is "the Cameron History" you mention. Is this the Cameron
History further defined on this page or is this a "general " cameron
history from uncited sources? I am VERY interested in this. Please give
a source to which I can refer!!!

You continue: "now is this the Daughter of King James IV and Margaret
Drummond list as Margret Jane Stewart "

I see where you are going here. It is again Blanchard in the tome
above who discusses Peggy Cameron as 'said to be' ggdtr of James IV
Scotland.
But this Margaret you mention appears to have married John Gordon,
eldest son of 3rd Lord Huntly (see Paul Moynagh's post in Subject
"James IV's bastards (was Churchillian Ancestry) " 23 Sept 2001 this
forum. I have not found reference for any other spouses for her, but I
think there are several people in this list who are interested in her
who I hope, but don't expect , are reading this and might be of help. I
do not know of a Cameron link for her, but have lost any (and that
nebulous) reference to her and her progeny for reasons outlined above.

More on Peggy , her purported husband and father in law

It is again Blanchard who is the source for the comment you make that
Peggy Cameron's McCurdy father in law and his own father 'died in
battle with the Camerons', and this succint comment was not clear to
me-was it for or against? It would make sense it would be for if
Peggy is correctly placed as wife, but, well, its best not to take
anything for granted.

Anyway, more importantly, at the end of the 16th century Clan Cameron
was embroiled in (longstanding) territorial dispute with Grant and
McIntosh, and "In 1598, a commission was granted to Huntly, Macintosh,
Grant of Freuchie, and others to apprehend Lochiel and all the chief
men of the clan for various crimes they had committed. The commission
was ineffective.....As a result, the Camerons invaded the Macintosh and
Grant lands and killed 'XLI of Macintoshes and XXIII tenants of Grant,
and hurt the Laird of Balendalough.' Other affrays followed, in one of
which fifty Camerons are said to have been killed. " (Col Sir Donald
Hamish Cameron of Lochiel, K.T., 26th Chief, "A History of Clan
Cameron' published by the Clan Cameron Association , 1971).

My QUESTION 3: I have not been succesful in finding an exact battle of
1600, do you know of one? Do you have any source besides Blanchard for
this 1600 death date in battle for these two generations McCurdy?

Blanchard did not discuss Peggy's ascendancy beyond his remark that she
is 'said to be great gddtr of James IV' . Peggy Cameron as this 'gddtr'
of the king has been nearly impossible to rule out or in....the progeny
of James IV is daunting-he having many known (not to mention any
unknown) illegitimate children (through his many women) and with two
generations to sort through, well, I was never succesful.

As an aside, it has occured to me that this 'relationship' of Peggy
Cameron to James IV as his GGdtr may be somehow born of a tortured
genealogy which showed up as oral tradition, involving but not
necessarily ascending to James IV. James IV's wife married two men
subsequently, Archibald Douglas 6th Lord Douglas which ended in divorce
and in 1518 living with another woman (haven't any progeny for him,
again I lost his specifics in that crash) and Henry Stewart, later Lord
Methven " by whom she had no offspring, though the contrary has been
asserted (and who) survived her some years.....he is stated to have had
children by Janet Stewart, daughter of the Earl of Atholl, whom he
married after Margaret's death. One of these children was mother of the
celebrated Earl of Gowrie, which has given rise to the absurd modern
hypothesis that the mother of Earl Gowrie was really daughter of Lord
Methven and Queen Margaret (Green, pp. 493-4; but cf. Reg. Mag. Sigill.
Scoti', 1546-80, Nos. 184-5,639-41, 1568)." [from DNB article on
her]

I have tried to figure out Peggy Cameron by finding SOME Cameron in the
two intervening 'generations' from James IV as you appear to be doing
-and have not been succesful, and I gave up, frankly, years ago, but
I don't exclude the necessity of examining the children of Methven and
his wife Jane Stewart as possibly holding the key to reference of
James IV as 'ancestor' for Peggy in order to put this thing to rest or
to test.

2)Have you found citation to something more concrete for this family
of Ewen Cameron and Marjory you mention in your post, and whose
children do not include her in the LDS file you accessed? It would be
interesting to at least see the source.

I would be very interested in any other information you have, or
suspicions you hold regarding Peggy. What have you got on the Camerons
of Erracht?



Cynthia Swope


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