Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

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Tony Hoskins

Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 07 jul 2005 20:07:01

Giovanna/Jeanne de Sabran or Maria del Balzo?

I read conflicting accounts of the mother of Sueva Orsini, daughter of
Niccolo Orsini, Conte di Nola (will 1399), and wife (1381) of Francesco
del Balzo, Duca d'Andria (d.1422).

1) Leo van de Pas' site "Genealogics", Ronny Bodine's _The Ancestry of
Dorothea Poyntz_ , and Doug Richardson's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ all
call Sueva's mother Giovanna/Jeanne de Sabran. But Mr. Richardson's book
also cites a source which in fact names another woman as Sueva's
mother:

2) <www.sardimpex.com> [Genealogie Delle Dinastie Nobili Italiane], sub
"Orsini del Balzo, Orsini di Pitigliano" shows Sueva's mother as maria
del Balzo:

"K1. Nicola (* 27-8-1331 + testamento: 14-2-1399, morto poco dopo a
Nola), 3° Conte di Nola, Gran Giustiziere del Regno di Napoli...Nobile
Romano; Senatore di Roma nel 1356

a) = Napoli 1352/1355 Giovanna (o Garizia) de Sabran, figlia di
Guglielmo Conte di Ariano e di Francesca dei Conti di Celano

b) = ca. 1359 Maria del Balzo, figlia di Raimondo Conte di Soleto
e di Isabella d'Eppes (d'Appia) (* 1340/1341 + ?) (v.)

L1. (ex 1°) Beatrice (* 1352/1355 ca. + ?), Nobile Romana. = ca.
1368/1370 Luigi Antonio della Ratta 3° Conte di Caserta (v.)

L2. (ex 2°) Roberto (* 1360 ca. + ca. 1400), 4° Conte di Nola

L3. (ex 2°) Sveva, Nobile Romana. = 8-12-1381 Francesco I del Balzo 1°
Duca d'Andria (v.)

L4. (ex 2°) Raimondo detto "Raimondello" Orsini del Balzo (+
Taranto 17-1-1406), 1° Principe di Taranto, Conte di Soleto (occupata
nel 1382), Duca di Benevento."

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 07 jul 2005 20:20:55

Dear Tony ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked a great question.

My research indicates that Niccolò Orsini (died 1399), Count of Nola
and Soleto, married before 5 January 1363 Giovanna (or Joan) di
Sabrano. You can find the evidence for the date in question in the
following source which I have cited in my book, Plantagenet Ancestry:

Urbain V (1362-1370): Lettres Communes 2 (1964): 28, 55-56, 140,
169.

The Sardimpex website may well be correct that Niccolò Orsini had a
second wife named Maria del Balzo. But if so, he married her after 5
January 1363.

Elsewhere, I might note that the Graphical Index to the Ancestry of
Charles II found on helpful Foundations for Medieval Genealogy website
(http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/9-12/24/393.htm) states that Jeanne
de Sabran died about 1357. This is also incorrect.

Inasmuch as Niccolò Orsini's wife was named Joan (or Giovanna) in
1363, it seems highly likely that Joan was the mother of his daughter,
Sueva Orsini, who reportedly married in 1381 (as his 3rd wife) to
Francesco del Balzo, Duke of Andria.

I understand there is information on the Orsini family in the following
source which I have no yet seen: Dict. de la Noblesse, by de la
Chesnaye-Desbois, supp. 15 (1869): 542-555. You might do well to
explore that source.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who descend from Count Niccolò Orsini:

William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, St. Leger Codd,
Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, Warham Horsmanden, John Nelson, Thomas
Owsley, Katherine Saint Leger, Mary Johanna Somerset, Thomas Wingfield.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
Giovanna/Jeanne de Sabran or Maria del Balzo?

I read conflicting accounts of the mother of Sueva Orsini, daughter of
Niccolo Orsini, Conte di Nola (will 1399), and wife (1381) of Francesco
del Balzo, Duca d'Andria (d.1422).

1) Leo van de Pas' site "Genealogics", Ronny Bodine's _The Ancestry of
Dorothea Poyntz_ , and Doug Richardson's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ all
call Sueva's mother Giovanna/Jeanne de Sabran. But Mr. Richardson's book
also cites a source which in fact names another woman as Sueva's
mother:

2) <www.sardimpex.com> [Genealogie Delle Dinastie Nobili Italiane], sub
"Orsini del Balzo, Orsini di Pitigliano" shows Sueva's mother as maria
del Balzo:

"K1. Nicola (* 27-8-1331 + testamento: 14-2-1399, morto poco dopo a
Nola), 3° Conte di Nola, Gran Giustiziere del Regno di Napoli...Nobile
Romano; Senatore di Roma nel 1356

a) = Napoli 1352/1355 Giovanna (o Garizia) de Sabran, figlia di
Guglielmo Conte di Ariano e di Francesca dei Conti di Celano

b) = ca. 1359 Maria del Balzo, figlia di Raimondo Conte di Soleto
e di Isabella d'Eppes (d'Appia) (* 1340/1341 + ?) (v.)

L1. (ex 1°) Beatrice (* 1352/1355 ca. + ?), Nobile Romana. = ca.
1368/1370 Luigi Antonio della Ratta 3° Conte di Caserta (v.)

L2. (ex 2°) Roberto (* 1360 ca. + ca. 1400), 4° Conte di Nola

L3. (ex 2°) Sveva, Nobile Romana. = 8-12-1381 Francesco I del Balzo 1°
Duca d'Andria (v.)

L4. (ex 2°) Raimondo detto "Raimondello" Orsini del Balzo (+
Taranto 17-1-1406), 1° Principe di Taranto, Conte di Soleto (occupata
nel 1382), Duca di Benevento."

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 jul 2005 03:03:59

Douglas Richardson wrote:

<snip>

I understand there is information on the Orsini family in the following
source which I have no yet seen: Dict. de la Noblesse, by de la
Chesnaye-Desbois, supp. 15 (1869): 542-555. You might do well to
explore that source.

This reference to is to the pedigree of the Sabran family, not much use
for the Orsini.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 08 jul 2005 07:53:56

Dear Tony ~

As a followup to my earlier post today, I can now provide you with an
exact transcript of the published 1363 item from the "Lettres Communes"
of Pope Urbain V which concerns Niccolò Orsini, Count of Nola, and his
then wife, Giovanna (or Joan):

Date: 5 (non.) January 1363

"5161. Nicolao de Filiis Ursi, comiti, et Johanne, ejus uxori,
comitisse Nolan., indulgetur ut in locas ecclesiast. interdicto
suppositis et persertim in regno Sicilie et terra citra Farum, civitate
Neapolitan. duxtaxat excepta, liceat eis et duabus aliis personis, a
quolibet eorum eligendis, missam et divina officia celebrari facere."
[Reference: Urbain V (1362-1370): Lettres Communes, 2 (1964): 28].

I'll send you a copy of the above item by surface mail for your files
later this week.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 20:47:04

Dear Tony ~

As a followup to my original message, I thought I might post a copy of
a transcript of another interesting document relating to the Orsini
family of Italy in the "Lettres Communes" of Pope Urbain V. This
second document traces the ancestry of Sir Niccolò Orsini (died 1399),
Count of Nola, back to his great-grandfather, Guy de Montfort, Count of
Nola, which Guy was a younger son of the well known Simon de Montfort,
Earl of Leicester in England.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Urbain V (1362-1370): Lettres Communes, 2 (1964): 55-56.

Date: 15 April 1363.

5408. "Venerabili fratri Petro, archiepiscopo Neapolitan., salutem
etc. Exhibita nobis per dilectum filium Nicolaum de Filiis Ursi,
comitem Nolanum, petitio continebat quod dudum clare mem. Carolus,
primus rex Sicilie, qd. Guidoni de Monteforti civitatem Nolanam cum
casalibus, hominibus, feudatariis, vassallis atque aliis juribus et
pertinentiis civitatis ejusdem necnon castra Montisfortis, Acripaldi et
Forini cum territoriis ac juribus et pertinenciis eorumdem sub titulo
comitatus et certo feudali servicio donavit illaque idem Guido longo
tempore tenuit et possedit pacifice et quiete. Sed postmodum ex eo
quod dicebatur dictum Guidonem in persona clare memorie Henrici in
regem Romanorum electi deliquisse, idem rex Carolus seu ejus curis
regis comitatum Nolanum et alia supradicta tanquam sibi commissa posuit
ad manum suam et per aliqua tempora tenuit et aliqua loca et bona ad
ipsum comitatum spectantia quibusdam personis sub certis novis
serviciis et titulo feudali concessit quodque deinde, prefato Guidone
reducto ad gratiam dicti regis et demum in ejus servitiis viam universe
carnis ingresso, qd. Anastasia, ejusdem Guidonis filia, per clare mem.
Carolum, secundum regem Sicilie, ad dictum comitatum per eum et
successores suos tenendum perpetuo extitit restituta et quamdiu vixit
integrum feudale servicium persolvit et fecit curie curie memorate et
tandem, dicta Anastasia a rebus humanis exempta, idem Nicolaus, comes,
nepos et legitimus heres Anastasie prefate, eidem legitime successit in
comitatu predicto ac idem servicium similiter solvit et fecit curie
supradicte licet persone quibus quedam loca et bona dicti comitatus per
dictam curiam tempore quo dictum comitatum tenebat ad manum suam
fuerunt in feudum concessa sub novis serviciis, ut prefertur,
recusaverint et recusent dicto Nicolao de dictis serviciis respondere
dicentes quod ea exhibent curie sepedicte. Continebat etiam petitio
supradicta quod quamvis ipse comes nonnulla ex bonis et locis hujusmodi
dicti comitatus per prefatam curiam, ut prefertur, concessis de novo
acquisiverit et reuniverit comitatui supradicto, tamen curia ipsa,
quamvis idem comes integrum servicium pro comitatu prefacto eidem curie
exhibeat, ut prefertur, eadem nova servicia dicens ea prescripsisse pro
ipsis locis et bonis reacquisitis et reunitis exigere nititur ab eodem
quodque prefata regina de hiis informata, consideratis fide ac gratis
serviciis dicti comitis eidem impensis, hujusmodi loca et bona a
prefato comitatu divisa ad ipsum reduceret eundemque comitatum
reintegraret de ipsis ac eidem comiti servicia eadem libenter
remitteret si pacta olim inter Romanam ecclesiam ac dictum Carolum in
concessione dicti regni, in quo regina ipsa eidem Carolo succedit et
quod a nobis et prefata ecclesia tenet in feudum, de non alienandis
bonis demanialibus dicti regni habita non obstarent. Unde comes
prefatus nobis humiliter supplicavit ut memorate regine loca et bona
hujusmodi a prefato comitatu divisa ad ipsum reducendi secundum statum
primevum eundemque comitatum reintegrandi de ipsis ac dicto comiti et
suis successoribus hujusmodi nova servicia totaliter remittendi, non
obstantibus commissione seu confiscatione dicti comitatus ac
prescriptione quacunque necnon pactis et conventionibus inter prefatam
Romanam ecclesiam et dictum Carolum primum in concessione prefati regni
habitis seu factis de non aliendis bonis demanialibus ipsius regni,
necnon constitutionibus apostolicis et juramento dicte regine
contrariis, dignaremur licenciam impartiri. Nos autem de premissis
noticiam non habentes ac de ipsorum veritate et circunstanciis volentes
plenius informari, fraternitati tue de qua in hiis et aliis plenam in
Domino fiduciam obtinemus presentium tenore committimus et mandamus
quatinus de premissis et eorum circunstanciis universis, persertim de
jure dicte regine et interesse Romane ecclesie prelibate et aliorum
quorum interest te simpliciter et de plano et sine strepitu et figura
judiciis informare ac informationem quam inde receperis nobis sub forma
publica vel sub tuo sigillo destinare procures, contradictores ..
Datum Avinione, xvii kal. maii anno primo." (A. 154, f. 515 [dans la
marge: De Camera]; V. 252, f. 54').

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