C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

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Douglas Richardson royala

C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 07 jul 2005 07:38:01

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 663 (sub Willoughby of Eresby)
indicates that Sir William Willoughby (died 1409), 5th Lord Willoughby
of Eresby, married (1st) "before 23 April 1383" Lucy le Strange,
daughter of Roger le Strange, 5th Lord Strange of Knockin, by Aline,
daughter of Edmund de Arundel, Earl of Arundel. The accompanying
footnote states that the marriage "perhaps" took place on 7 January
1382/3, citing Cal. Close Rolls, 1382-85, pp. 297-298; Cal. Papal
Letters, vol. iv, pp. 492, 496.

Sometime ago, I posted an abstract of the marriage license of William
Willoughby and Lucy le Strange dated 3rd January 1382/3, which
indicated that the marriage of this couple was to take place at Middle,
Shropshire [Reference: William Salt Arch. Society, n.s., 8 (1905): 84].
This marriage license was overlooked by Complete Peerage.

Although it does not say so, Complete Peerage's source for the marriage
date as being "before 23 April 1383" presumably comes from a Willoughby
family indenture found among the Manuscripts of the Earl of Ancaster
now deposited at the Lincolnshire Archives. An abstract of this
document is copied below from the helpful online A2A Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). On the date, 23 April
1382/3, Robert de Willoughby (father of the groom) bound himself to
Lady Aline le Strange (mother of the bride) and Philip le Despenser to
enfeoff the said William and Lucy and their heirs with the manors of of
Wheatacre, Edgefield, and Walcott in co. Norfolk, or with land of
equivalent value. The indenture further provided that if the said
Lucy, "wife of William, Robert's eldest son, and daughter of Aline,"
should die within 5 years after the Wednesday after Epiphany last past
without issue, Robert and his heirs are to pay to Aline or Philip 400
marks within the two years after Lucy's death. Thus, the marriage of
William and Lucy had already taken place before 23 April 1382/3.

Presumbably "Wednesday after Epiphany last past" was the actual
marriage date of William and Lucy. I assume that the date intended is
5 January 1382/3, as the British History Online website at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ report.asp?compid=33471 dates the
Thursday after Epiphany in that same year as being 6 January. I have
not yet verified that 5 January is the correct date. If 5 January
proves to be the correct date, it would be slightly different than the
date 7 January which Complete Peerage earlier used as the likely date
of this couple's marriage.

Besides providing us a likely marriage date for William Willoughby and
Lucy le Strange, the 1383 indenture also indicates that Sir Philip le
Despenser (died 1401), of Goxhill, Lincolnshire, was acting with Lady
Aline le Strange on behalf of Lady Aline's daughter, Lucy. This
suggests a close family tie between Philip le Despenser and the le
Strange family, especially since the Willoughby family was directed to
pay 400 marks of money to either Lady Aline or Sir Philip, should Lucy
le Strange die without issue within 5 years of the likely date of her
marriage.

Curiously, Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 289, footnote b (sub Despenser)
cites an ancient pedigree of the Despenser family in the College of
Arms in which this Philip le Despenser's wife is identified as Margaret
Cobham, and his mother as Joan le Strange. However, the evidence seems
very good that this Philip le Despenser's mother was Joan Cobham, and
that his wife was a woman named Elizabeth of unknown parentage. Given
that Sir Philip's mother was a Cobham, it seems entirely possible that
his wife, Elizabeth, was actually a le Strange, and that the pedigree
flipped the identities of the wives of two succesive men named Philip
le Despenser. If so, then Elizabeth, wife of Sir Philip le Despenser
(died 1401), should be considered as a possible daughter of Lady Aline
le Strange.

In addition to the 1383 indenture, Sir Philip le Despenser appears in
another document dated 1392 in connection with a quitclaim of various
Willoughby family properties. A copy of the abstract of this document
is also provided below from the A2A Catalogue.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Manuscripts of the Earl of Ancaster, Lincolnshire Archives

Document #1:

Reference: 5ANC1/1/20
Indenture of defeasance of a bond in 100 marks acknowledged before the
Lord Chancellor.

Creation dates: 23rd April, 1383

Robert of Willoughby, lord of Eresby, is bound to Lady Alyne
Lestraunge, lady of Knokyn and to Philip le Despenser:

1. If Lucy, wife of William, Robert's eldest son, and daughter of
Aline, dies within 5 years after the Wednesday after Epiphany last past
without issue Robert and his heirs are to pay to Aline or Philip 400
marks within the two years after Lucy's death.

2. Lucy and William and their heirs are to be enfeoffed with the manors
of Wheatacre, Edgefield and Walcott in co. Norfolk, or with land of
equivalent value.

Two seals, one armorial (rubbed) ...dame Alyne lestrange.

Endorsement of enrolment on the dorse of the chancellor's roll among
the writings for April.

Document #2:

Reference: 5ANC1/1/28
Notification of a quitclaim of right by feoffees.

Creation dates: 3rd November, 1392

John De La Warr and Philip Le Despenser, knights, Mr. Eudo La Zouche
and Mr. Thomas La Warre, clerks, Henry Malbys, parson of Willoughby,
William of Scrafield, parson of Braytoft and William Michell of
Friskney to Robert of Willoughby, knight, son of Lord John of
Willoughby, knight.

Property: manors of Eresby, Willoughby, Fulstow, Northcotes, Skidbrooke
with Saltfleethaven, Theddlethorp, Cockerington, Mumby, Orby, Great
Steeping, Langton, Whitehallpark, Scrivelsby, Fulletby, Wispington,
Belchford, Lilford, counties Northampton and Cambridge, and Chatgrave,
counties Norfolk and Suffolk.

4 seals remain; 3 blank tags. Seals 1 (De la Warr?); 2, (La Zouche); 3,
(?) armorial.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
COPY OF EARLIER POST

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage states that William Willoughby, 5th Lord Willoughby
of Erresby, co. Lincoln, married before 23 April 1383, to Lucy le
Strange, daughter of Roger le Strange, 5th Lord Strange of Knockin,
Salop, by Aline, daughter of Edmund, Earl of Arundel [Reference: CP,
12 Pt. 2 (1959): 661-663].

Recently I came across a license for this couple's marriage which was
overlooked by the editor of Complete Peerage. It reads as follows:

"Date: 3rd Jan. 1382/3

To Lady Aline, widow of Roger Lestrange, Lord of Knokyn, for the
solemnization of marriage between William, son of Sir William de
Willoweby, Lord of Eresby in Lincoln diocese, and Lucy, daughter of
the said Lady Aline, in her oratory within her castle of Mudle [i.e.,
Middle, Salop]."

[Reference: William Salt Arch. Society, n.s., 8 (1905): 84].

The license provides the place of marriage for the couple. However,
it appears that the license gives the name of William de Willoughby's
father's incorrectly. William de Willoughby was actually the son of
Robert de Willoughby, not William de Willoughby.

A list of colonial immigrants who descend from William and Lucy (le
Strange) Willoughby is provided below. Lucy le Strange's mother,
Aline de Arundel, was the niece of Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen
de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave, who is the subject of other posts this
week on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

- - - - - - - - -

List of immigrants who descend from William de Willoughby, 5th Lord
Willoughby, and his wife, Lucy le Strange:

l. Henry & Thomas Batte.

2. George & Nehemiah Blakiston.

3. Thomas Booth.

4. Obadiah Bruen.

5. Stephen Bull.

6. Edward Carleton.

7. Thomas Dudley.

8. John Fenwick.

9. Roger & Thomas Mallory.

10. Elizabeth Marshall.

11. Anne Mauleverer.

12. Philip & Thomas Nelson

13. Ellen Newton.

14. John Oxenbridge.

Peter Stewart

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 jul 2005 09:17:10

Comments on chronology interspersed:


<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120718281.663238.92020@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

Sometime ago, I posted an abstract of the marriage license of William
Willoughby and Lucy le Strange dated 3rd January 1382/3, which
indicated that the marriage of this couple was to take place at Middle,
Shropshire [Reference: William Salt Arch. Society, n.s., 8 (1905): 84].
This marriage license was overlooked by Complete Peerage.

Although it does not say so, Complete Peerage's source for the marriage
date as being "before 23 April 1383" presumably comes from a Willoughby
family indenture found among the Manuscripts of the Earl of Ancaster
now deposited at the Lincolnshire Archives. An abstract of this
document is copied below from the helpful online A2A Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). On the date, 23 April
1382/3, Robert de Willoughby (father of the groom) bound himself to
Lady Aline le Strange (mother of the bride) and Philip le Despenser to
enfeoff the said William and Lucy and their heirs with the manors of of
Wheatacre, Edgefield, and Walcott in co. Norfolk, or with land of
equivalent value.

"3 January 1382/3" is plain enough, Annunciation style, but why "23 April
1382/3"?

<snip>

Presumbably "Wednesday after Epiphany last past" was the actual
marriage date of William and Lucy. I assume that the date intended is
5 January 1382/3, as the British History Online website at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ report.asp?compid=33471 dates the
Thursday after Epiphany in that same year as being 6 January. I have
not yet verified that 5 January is the correct date.

5 January 1383 (new style) was a Wednesday according to the Chambeau
formula, though I wouldn't guarantee my arithmetic.

If 5 January proves to be the correct date, it would be slightly
different
than the date 7 January which Complete Peerage earlier used as the likely
date of this couple's marriage.

Besides providing us a likely marriage date for William Willoughby and
Lucy le Strange, the 1383 indenture also indicates that Sir Philip le
Despenser (died 1401), of Goxhill, Lincolnshire, was acting with Lady
Aline le Strange on behalf of Lady Aline's daughter, Lucy.

If 1383 is the year, why "1382/3" for 23 April in that year as above?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 jul 2005 10:10:18

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ay5ze.17106$oJ.9534@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

5 January 1383 (new style) was a Wednesday according to the Chambeau
formula, though I wouldn't guarantee my arithmetic.

Well, on a second attempt at calculation it came out as Monday, and that
stands up to a third go at it.

Perhaps someone who can actually do the arithmetic will correct this.

Peter Stewart

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 07 jul 2005 10:20:02

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Presumbably "Wednesday after Epiphany last past" was the actual
marriage date of William and Lucy. I assume that the date intended is
5 January 1382/3, as the British History Online website at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ report.asp?compid=33471 dates the
Thursday after Epiphany in that same year as being 6 January. I have
not yet verified that 5 January is the correct date.

Peter Stewart replied:
5 January 1383 (new style) was a Wednesday according to the Chambeau
formula, though I wouldn't guarantee my arithmetic.

Douglas Richardson continued:
If 5 January proves to be the correct date, it would be slightly
different
than the date 7 January which Complete Peerage earlier used as the
likely
date of this couple's marriage.


I reckon that the feast of Epiphany before April 1383 was Tuesday 6 January
1382/3 (I've checked this from my own calendar against a couple of other
online facilities).

This would make the Wednesday after Epiphany 7 January 1382/3.

I can only think that when the text on "British History Online" puts [6
Jan.] after "Thursday next after the Epiphany", it's referring (not very
helpfully) to Epiphany itself, rather than to the Thursday in question.

Chris Phillips

Peter Stewart

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 jul 2005 10:49:37

How silly of me, first & second time round this arithmetical mulberry bush -
of course the feast of the Epiphany is 6 January, so that the Wednesday
after this could not have been 5 January in any event.

Peter Stewart


"Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:dais4b$pdp$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Presumbably "Wednesday after Epiphany last past" was the actual
marriage date of William and Lucy. I assume that the date intended is
5 January 1382/3, as the British History Online website at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/ report.asp?compid=33471 dates the
Thursday after Epiphany in that same year as being 6 January. I have
not yet verified that 5 January is the correct date.

Peter Stewart replied:
5 January 1383 (new style) was a Wednesday according to the Chambeau
formula, though I wouldn't guarantee my arithmetic.

Douglas Richardson continued:
If 5 January proves to be the correct date, it would be slightly
different
than the date 7 January which Complete Peerage earlier used as the
likely
date of this couple's marriage.


I reckon that the feast of Epiphany before April 1383 was Tuesday 6
January
1382/3 (I've checked this from my own calendar against a couple of other
online facilities).

This would make the Wednesday after Epiphany 7 January 1382/3.

I can only think that when the text on "British History Online" puts [6
Jan.] after "Thursday next after the Epiphany", it's referring (not very
helpfully) to Epiphany itself, rather than to the Thursday in question.

Chris Phillips



Douglas Richardson royala

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 07 jul 2005 16:04:31

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post last night, I twice inadvertedly referred to a date as 23
April 1382/3. I should have said 23 April 1383, not 1382/3. Mea
culpa.

Best always. Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

D. Spencer Hines

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 jul 2005 18:30:07

Hilarious!

Peter Stewart's bollixed brain continues to betray him.

But he does provide Great Entertainment....

How silly of him, indeed.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:RU6ze.17215$oJ.13194@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

| How silly of me, first & second time round this arithmetical mulberry
bush -
| of course the feast of the Epiphany is 6 January, so that the
Wednesday
| after this could not have been 5 January in any event.
|
| Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 jul 2005 05:16:03

Dear Douglas, Peter and others,
I have been wondering why
Sir Philip le DeSpencer, Knight of Nettlestead would involve himself so closely
in the marriage indenture between William Willoughby de Eresby, son and heir
of Robert Willoughby , 4th Baron Willoughby de Eresby and his wife Margery la
Zouche (of the Haryngworth Zouches) and Lucy le Strange, daughter of Roger le
Strange, 5th Baron le Strange of Knockyn , then deceased and his wife Aline de
Arundel, daughter of Edmund de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and his wife Alice de
Warenne. The date of the Indenture was January of 1382/ 3. The Philip le
DeSpencer in question would have been the one born 1342- d August 1401 who
married an Elizabeth, parents unknown who also died in 1401. Sir Philip`s parents
were Sir Philip le DeSpencer and Joan, an apparent daughter of John Cobham,
Baron Cobham. His son and heir Sir Philip would marry Elizabeth Tibetot by
1398-1400 (their daughter Margery was aged 24 to 26 years of age at her father`s
decease in 1424. Elizabeth Tibetot was a granddaughter of Millicent la Zouche
(of Haryngworth), Lady Deincourt and so a cousin to the Willoughby bridegroom.
Millicent la Zouche having been a daughter of William la Zouche, 1st Baron
Zouche of Haryngworth.
Sources Weis - Sheppard Magna Carta Sureties 1215 lines 74, 9 and SMG
posts by Douglas Richardson indicating that Robert Willoughby`s wife Margery
la Zouche rather than Alice Skipwith was mother of William Willoughby, 5th
Baron Willoughby de Eresby plus the current thread.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: C.P. Addition: Willoughby-le Strange-Despenser

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 08 jul 2005 06:00:25

Dear James ~

Complete Peerage sub Despenser states that there is an ancient pedigree
of the Despenser family in the College of Arms which indicates that the
mother of Sir Philip le Despenser (died 1401) was a le Strange and that
his wife was a Cobham. We know from other sources, however, that Sir
Philip's mother was actually a Cobham, not a le Strange. As such, it's
a good possibility that it was Sir Philip's wife who was a le Strange,
and that the maiden names of the two Despenser wives were inadvertedly
swapped. If so, this could explain Sir Philip le Despenser's
appearance in the 1383 indenture involving the marriage settlement of
Lucy le Strange and William Willoughby.

Clearly, this matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Douglas, Peter and others,
I have been wondering why
Sir Philip le DeSpencer, Knight of Nettlestead would involve himself so closely
in the marriage indenture between William Willoughby de Eresby, son and heir
of Robert Willoughby , 4th Baron Willoughby de Eresby and his wife Margery la
Zouche (of the Haryngworth Zouches) and Lucy le Strange, daughter of Roger le
Strange, 5th Baron le Strange of Knockyn , then deceased and his wife Aline de
Arundel, daughter of Edmund de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and his wife Alice de
Warenne. The date of the Indenture was January of 1382/ 3. The Philip le
DeSpencer in question would have been the one born 1342- d August 1401 who
married an Elizabeth, parents unknown who also died in 1401. Sir Philip`s parents
were Sir Philip le DeSpencer and Joan, an apparent daughter of John Cobham,
Baron Cobham. His son and heir Sir Philip would marry Elizabeth Tibetot by
1398-1400 (their daughter Margery was aged 24 to 26 years of age at her father`s
decease in 1424. Elizabeth Tibetot was a granddaughter of Millicent la Zouche
(of Haryngworth), Lady Deincourt and so a cousin to the Willoughby bridegroom.
Millicent la Zouche having been a daughter of William la Zouche, 1st Baron
Zouche of Haryngworth.
Sources Weis - Sheppard Magna Carta Sureties 1215 lines 74, 9 and SMG
posts by Douglas Richardson indicating that Robert Willoughby`s wife Margery
la Zouche rather than Alice Skipwith was mother of William Willoughby, 5th
Baron Willoughby de Eresby plus the current thread.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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