Bold-Savage

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Clagett, Brice

Bold-Savage

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 02 jun 2005 19:01:01

Shaw's Knights of England shows:

1:135: John Savage made K.B. at the coronation of Queen
Elizabeth Wydeville, May 26, 1465.

1:18: Sir John Savage made K.G. Nov. 16, 1488. He is there
said to have been slain Oct. 1491 (as opposed to the usual
1492). The index to Shaw thinks this is the same person as
the preceding, but query.

2:15: John Savage knighted by Edward IV after the Battle of
Tewkesbury, May 1471.

2:17: John Savage made banneret in Scotland, July 24, 1482.

According to Ormerod 1:713, John Savage (d. 1463) was aged
53 at his death, thus born 1409/10, and his son Sir John Savage
(d. 1495) was aged 73 at death, thus born 1421/2. Both dates
can't be right. The latter seems more likely to be right; John the
son could not have been born much after 1421/2 since, as Mr.
Whitesides has shown, he had a daughter Elizabeth who married
in 1458.

If Douce was not a daughter of Sir John (d. 1495), the only other
plausible candidate for her father would seem to be John (d. 1463).
Sir John K.G., d. 1491 or 1492, was implausibly young to be her
father: Douce who married in 1464 is not likely to have been grand-
daughter of Sir John b. 1421/2.

Cristopher Nash

Re: Bold-Savage

Legg inn av Cristopher Nash » 03 jun 2005 14:10:02

"Clagett, Brice" <bclagett@cov.com> wrote --

Shaw's Knights of England shows:

1:135: John Savage made K.B. at the coronation of Queen
Elizabeth Wydeville, May 26, 1465.

1:18: Sir John Savage made K.G. Nov. 16, 1488. He is there
said to have been slain Oct. 1491 (as opposed to the usual
1492). The index to Shaw thinks this is the same person as
the preceding, but query.

2:15: John Savage knighted by Edward IV after the Battle of
Tewkesbury, May 1471.

2:17: John Savage made banneret in Scotland, July 24, 1482.

According to Ormerod 1:713, John Savage (d. 1463) was aged
53 at his death, thus born 1409/10, and his son Sir John Savage
(d. 1495) was aged 73 at death, thus born 1421/2. Both dates
can't be right. The latter seems more likely to be right; John the
son could not have been born much after 1421/2 since, as Mr.
Whitesides has shown, he had a daughter Elizabeth who married
in 1458.

If Douce was not a daughter of Sir John (d. 1495), the only other
plausible candidate for her father would seem to be John (d. 1463).
Sir John K.G., d. 1491 or 1492, was implausibly young to be her
father: Douce who married in 1464 is not likely to have been grand-
daughter of Sir John b. 1421/2.

Brice, this really helps to focus our minds - thanks a lot.

I just need to say that, unless I've missed something, we don't know
enough about Sir John Savage (d. 1491-2) to assume that either John
(d. 1463) or John (d. 1495) and not he must be the fa of Dulcia.

I think it'll help for us to keep in mind that it's Elizabeth and not
Dulcia who is reported to be the da. of a 'John Savage the younger'.
(In any case, have we ascertained that John [d. 1491-2] isn't also a
'John Savage the younger'? And are we obliged to ignore that it's
not altogether uncommon for individuals to be distinguished from
proximate living uncles and even cousins by this epithet?)

I may be wrong, but I have to admit that as so far I can see
everything valuably culled about this third John to date has him
passing all the tests we've applied to the others as candidate for
father of Dulcia (chronology, status, association with Henry Bold,
likely connection with Savage/Bold descendants' associated families,
etc). Has anyone found anything against him? If we're to pursue
this line, I'm afraid we need that!

Cheers!

Cris
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