Vipont-Vernon
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Patricia Junkin
Vipont-Vernon
Leo,
I noticed that you have a Margaret Vipont married to Richard Vernon. Could
you tell me what from which source this derives? Another site indicates she
was the daughter of Robert and Idonea Busli, however, Idonea was dead
1235-41 and if Richard was born in 1240, I suspect these are not her
parents.
Thanks you,
Pat
I noticed that you have a Margaret Vipont married to Richard Vernon. Could
you tell me what from which source this derives? Another site indicates she
was the daughter of Robert and Idonea Busli, however, Idonea was dead
1235-41 and if Richard was born in 1240, I suspect these are not her
parents.
Thanks you,
Pat
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Dear Pat,
On the bottom of the page is Burke's mentioned. Sadly, I do not have any
dates as with dates such discrepancies would become clear. At present I
don't have her parents attached to her. According to Turton Idonea de Busli
died in 1240.
Best wishes.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <pajunkin@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: Vipont-Vernon
On the bottom of the page is Burke's mentioned. Sadly, I do not have any
dates as with dates such discrepancies would become clear. At present I
don't have her parents attached to her. According to Turton Idonea de Busli
died in 1240.
Best wishes.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <pajunkin@cox.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: Vipont-Vernon
Leo,
I noticed that you have a Margaret Vipont married to Richard Vernon. Could
you tell me what from which source this derives? Another site indicates
she
was the daughter of Robert and Idonea Busli, however, Idonea was dead
1235-41 and if Richard was born in 1240, I suspect these are not her
parents.
Thanks you,
Pat
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
Pat
----------
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
Pat
----------
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 5:23 PM
Dear Pat,
On the bottom of the page is Burke's mentioned. Sadly, I do not have any
dates as with dates such discrepancies would become clear. At present I
don't have her parents attached to her. According to Turton Idonea de Busli
died in 1240.
Best wishes.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <pajunkin@cox.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: Vipont-Vernon
Leo,
I noticed that you have a Margaret Vipont married to Richard Vernon. Could
you tell me what from which source this derives? Another site indicates
she
was the daughter of Robert and Idonea Busli, however, Idonea was dead
1235-41 and if Richard was born in 1240, I suspect these are not her
parents.
Thanks you,
Pat
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/05
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Patricia Junkin wrote:
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Vipont-Vernon
I would agree with Todd that there is nothing to support the
Vernon-Vipont marriage. I suspect it was placed in the pedigree by a
later antiquary to try and explain the descent of some lands; this
would have been at a point when the descent from Gilbert le Fraunceys
had been obscured, either by time or design. For the connections (blood
and otherwise), see 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont, le
Franceys and de Vernon', by FW Ragg, in Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian and Archaeological Society Transactions, New Series vol XII
(1912).
The marriage appears in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire (HS xxix,
p470), along with the equally spurious Vesci match. The arms are given:
gules,six annulets, three, two, and one, or. These arms are quartered
by the Vernons in the 16th Century and onwards, and are later
identified as being those of the Avenel family. However, VCH Bucks
gives the Avenel arms as argent, a fesse between six rings gules.
Whatever, there was some confusion and the errors have lasted centuries
in the peerages (and will survive in some pedigrees for many more, no
doubt). The most recent Burke's corrects a great deal.
As for Pitchcott, VCH records it as being probably held by the Pipard
family in 1166 of the honour of Wallingford. William de Vernon held as
tenant of Roger Pipard by 1225. No mention though of 1176 rolls.
Matthew
Vernon-Vipont marriage. I suspect it was placed in the pedigree by a
later antiquary to try and explain the descent of some lands; this
would have been at a point when the descent from Gilbert le Fraunceys
had been obscured, either by time or design. For the connections (blood
and otherwise), see 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont, le
Franceys and de Vernon', by FW Ragg, in Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian and Archaeological Society Transactions, New Series vol XII
(1912).
The marriage appears in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire (HS xxix,
p470), along with the equally spurious Vesci match. The arms are given:
gules,six annulets, three, two, and one, or. These arms are quartered
by the Vernons in the 16th Century and onwards, and are later
identified as being those of the Avenel family. However, VCH Bucks
gives the Avenel arms as argent, a fesse between six rings gules.
Whatever, there was some confusion and the errors have lasted centuries
in the peerages (and will survive in some pedigrees for many more, no
doubt). The most recent Burke's corrects a great deal.
As for Pitchcott, VCH records it as being probably held by the Pipard
family in 1166 of the honour of Wallingford. William de Vernon held as
tenant of Roger Pipard by 1225. No mention though of 1176 rolls.
Matthew
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Vipont-Vernon
In message of 20 May, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
In the "Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary" Vol I, p. 7
these arms are given as used by Cromwell, Plescy, Respond, Vepount
(various spellings) and a whole host of references to sundry medieval
documents. No Vesci, though.
Avenel are not included for these arms either.
These are very similar to the above but the Medieval Ordinary (which
is in the order of the names of the bits of the arms) has only got up to
Volume two which ends in Chevron so Fesse is possibly in Vol three, or
even four.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
I would agree with Todd that there is nothing to support the
Vernon-Vipont marriage. I suspect it was placed in the pedigree by a
later antiquary to try and explain the descent of some lands; this
would have been at a point when the descent from Gilbert le Fraunceys
had been obscured, either by time or design. For the connections
(blood and otherwise), see 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont,
le Franceys and de Vernon', by FW Ragg, in Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian and Archaeological Society Transactions, New Series vol
XII (1912).
The marriage appears in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire (HS xxix,
p470), along with the equally spurious Vesci match. The arms are
given: gules,six annulets, three, two, and one, or.
In the "Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary" Vol I, p. 7
these arms are given as used by Cromwell, Plescy, Respond, Vepount
(various spellings) and a whole host of references to sundry medieval
documents. No Vesci, though.
These arms are quartered by the Vernons in the 16th Century and
onwards, and are later identified as being those of the Avenel family.
Avenel are not included for these arms either.
However, VCH Bucks gives the Avenel arms as argent, a fesse between
six rings gules.
These are very similar to the above but the Medieval Ordinary (which
is in the order of the names of the bits of the arms) has only got up to
Volume two which ends in Chevron so Fesse is possibly in Vol three, or
even four.
Whatever, there was some confusion and the errors have lasted
centuries in the peerages (and will survive in some pedigrees for
many more, no doubt). The most recent Burke's corrects a great deal.
As for Pitchcott, VCH records it as being probably held by the Pipard
family in 1166 of the honour of Wallingford. William de Vernon held as
tenant of Roger Pipard by 1225. No mention though of 1176 rolls.
Matthew
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Gjest
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
Yes, apologies for not being clearer; the arms were for Vipont. The
Vesci marriage was mentioned as being another element of the pedigree
which is erroneous but may still be found repeated as fact.
They are certainly very useful books, and I hope they do continue to
appear!
In message of 20 May, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I would agree with Todd that there is nothing to support the
Vernon-Vipont marriage. I suspect it was placed in the pedigree by
a
later antiquary to try and explain the descent of some lands; this
would have been at a point when the descent from Gilbert le
Fraunceys
had been obscured, either by time or design. For the connections
(blood and otherwise), see 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de
Veteripont,
le Franceys and de Vernon', by FW Ragg, in Cumberland and
Westmorland
Antiquarian and Archaeological Society Transactions, New Series vol
XII (1912).
The marriage appears in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire (HS xxix,
p470), along with the equally spurious Vesci match. The arms are
given: gules,six annulets, three, two, and one, or.
In the "Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary" Vol I, p. 7
these arms are given as used by Cromwell, Plescy, Respond, Vepount
(various spellings) and a whole host of references to sundry medieval
documents. No Vesci, though.
Yes, apologies for not being clearer; the arms were for Vipont. The
Vesci marriage was mentioned as being another element of the pedigree
which is erroneous but may still be found repeated as fact.
These arms are quartered by the Vernons in the 16th Century and
onwards, and are later identified as being those of the Avenel
family.
Avenel are not included for these arms either.
However, VCH Bucks gives the Avenel arms as argent, a fesse between
six rings gules.
These are very similar to the above but the Medieval Ordinary (which
is in the order of the names of the bits of the arms) has only got up
to
Volume two which ends in Chevron so Fesse is possibly in Vol three,
or
even four.
They are certainly very useful books, and I hope they do continue to
appear!
Whatever, there was some confusion and the errors have lasted
centuries in the peerages (and will survive in some pedigrees for
many more, no doubt). The most recent Burke's corrects a great
deal.
As for Pitchcott, VCH records it as being probably held by the
Pipard
family in 1166 of the honour of Wallingford. William de Vernon held
as
tenant of Roger Pipard by 1225. No mention though of 1176 rolls.
Matthew
--
Tim
Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:
http://powys.org
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis, Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, 1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis, Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, 1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Pat,
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis, Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, 1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Matthew,
Thank you for your reply.
Forgive my transposition. I stand corrected, p. 326 C&WAAS, Mauld's Meaburn
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, " While this was going on John le
Fraunceys bade Robert of Appleby shoot him with an arrow, and Robert did as
he was asked and shot him in the breast and Nicholas very quickly died."
May I ask, if Ragg corrected his entry on p. 324 of this article: "In 1277/8
Lawrence de Veteriponte brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against
Gilbert le Fraunceys, son of John"? Or was this of another generation? I do
not have access to C&WAAS and was able to copy only portions at Kendal so am
very anxious to see Ragg's corrections.
I shall work on additional support for the marriage of Joan de Veteripont,
daughter of Ivo, to Hugh le Fraunceys.
Again, many thanks.
Pat
----------
Thank you for your reply.
Forgive my transposition. I stand corrected, p. 326 C&WAAS, Mauld's Meaburn
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, " While this was going on John le
Fraunceys bade Robert of Appleby shoot him with an arrow, and Robert did as
he was asked and shot him in the breast and Nicholas very quickly died."
May I ask, if Ragg corrected his entry on p. 324 of this article: "In 1277/8
Lawrence de Veteriponte brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against
Gilbert le Fraunceys, son of John"? Or was this of another generation? I do
not have access to C&WAAS and was able to copy only portions at Kendal so am
very anxious to see Ragg's corrections.
I shall work on additional support for the marriage of Joan de Veteripont,
daughter of Ivo, to Hugh le Fraunceys.
Again, many thanks.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:07 AM
Pat,
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis, Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, 1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea
de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess
of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret
Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom
the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Pat,
I guess that Ragg put in the 'son of John' and it doesn't appear in the
original claim. Otherwise there are problems! The correction is only to
the pedigree given in summary on p393 of the Maud's Meaburn article.
There are numerous family members linked conjecturally, but Hugh is the
father of John and Adam, the latter the corrected father of Gilbert.
There is just the one Gilbert. Hugh's wife is left blank (and Adam's).
I don't know if you have this from ib.,p325 (I think we are quoting
from different issues, I also don't have access at the moment but your
piece may be NS vol XI, mine vol XII):
'In 1287 he [Richard le F/Vernon] claims to be acquitted by John de
Baliol of service to Isabel de Clifford for Meaburn Maud (de Banco 66,
Hill., Ed. I.) In 1287 also arose a question between him and Robert,
son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont, who was heir of Joan, which was
tried before the Assize to settle any claim on the manor of Meaburn
maud. Robert had granted him a charter of quitclaim and admitted it;
the question had come up before, but Robert's case went no further at
that time because Gilbert, against whom he brought the case, had died
between the obtaining of the writ and the trial.'
If Lawrence was indeed heir of Joan, it would effectively rule out her
having been the mother of any le Fraunceys sons; I don't know if the
original text is supplied in the article, I only have copies of (43!)
pages of it most concerned with the Vernons. But it would certainly be
worth tracking down, if it isn't the one you have already.
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
I guess that Ragg put in the 'son of John' and it doesn't appear in the
original claim. Otherwise there are problems! The correction is only to
the pedigree given in summary on p393 of the Maud's Meaburn article.
There are numerous family members linked conjecturally, but Hugh is the
father of John and Adam, the latter the corrected father of Gilbert.
There is just the one Gilbert. Hugh's wife is left blank (and Adam's).
I don't know if you have this from ib.,p325 (I think we are quoting
from different issues, I also don't have access at the moment but your
piece may be NS vol XI, mine vol XII):
'In 1287 he [Richard le F/Vernon] claims to be acquitted by John de
Baliol of service to Isabel de Clifford for Meaburn Maud (de Banco 66,
Hill., Ed. I.) In 1287 also arose a question between him and Robert,
son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont, who was heir of Joan, which was
tried before the Assize to settle any claim on the manor of Meaburn
maud. Robert had granted him a charter of quitclaim and admitted it;
the question had come up before, but Robert's case went no further at
that time because Gilbert, against whom he brought the case, had died
between the obtaining of the writ and the trial.'
If Lawrence was indeed heir of Joan, it would effectively rule out her
having been the mother of any le Fraunceys sons; I don't know if the
original text is supplied in the article, I only have copies of (43!)
pages of it most concerned with the Vernons. But it would certainly be
worth tracking down, if it isn't the one you have already.
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Matthew,
Thank you for your reply.
Forgive my transposition. I stand corrected, p. 326 C&WAAS, Mauld's Meaburn
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, " While this was going on John le
Fraunceys bade Robert of Appleby shoot him with an arrow, and Robert did as
he was asked and shot him in the breast and Nicholas very quickly died."
May I ask, if Ragg corrected his entry on p. 324 of this article: "In 1277/8
Lawrence de Veteriponte brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against
Gilbert le Fraunceys, son of John"? Or was this of another generation? I do
not have access to C&WAAS and was able to copy only portions at Kendal so am
very anxious to see Ragg's corrections.
I shall work on additional support for the marriage of Joan de Veteripont,
daughter of Ivo, to Hugh le Fraunceys.
Again, many thanks.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:07 AM
Pat,
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis, Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, 1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married Idonea
de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the Countess
of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret
Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon], of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom
the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Matthew,
My information is from C&WAAS, Art. XIX. Vol. is in question. I do not have
your article, 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont, le Franceys and de
Vernon' but will attempt to secure a copy.
Maud de Morville m. William de Veteriponte. Their son Ivo m. Isabel de
Lancaster and possibly Sybil de Thoresby.
Ivo b. bef. 1160, d. 1239 had:
1.Robert who in 27H3 [1243] granted Meaburn to John le F., son of Hugh. for
yearly service; John le F. regranting peaceable use to Joan, d/o Ivo
2.Lawrence m. Eda and had Robert
3.Nicholas b. c. 1200-1215 m. Annabella of the Langton de Veteripontes
4.Jania m. Alan Richemond
5.Joan m. Hugh le Fraunceys?
6.Alan [perhaps]
I agree that Ivo granted his daughter, Joan, her moiety of Maulds Meaburn
and, so far as I have found, is not referred to as an heiress.
The charter of Ivo to Joan is lengthy but specific: All these I and my heirs
have given to the same Joan, to be held and to be possessed of me and my
heirs, by Joan and her heirs and assigns or by any one to whom she shall
give any of it at any time:--all these with all that belongs to all, to hold
in good and hereditary and free and undisturbed possession in entirety in
full and peaceful and honorable tenure, with the roads," etc. She was
obliged to give Ivo and his heirs "one 'sore' sparrow hawk or one penny at
the festival of St. Lawrence." Her sister Jania was married by this time to
Alan de Richemund as Ivo mentions he "gave to him [Alan] in marriage with
Jama [Jania] my daughter." This charter predates 1239 when Ivo is recorded
as dead and his son and heir Robert leases his lands in Westmoreland to John
le Fraunceys, Robert becoming "mesne lord between the Bailiols and John le
Fraunceys." Robert was dead by 1277 when his brother, Lawrence claims
Maulds Meaburn including the mill which Ivo gave Joan. All according to
Ragg in C&WAAS, Vol. VII, p. 277-282, Art. XVIII, Mauld's Meaburn, the
Alston Mines and a branch of the Veteripontes.
If John le Fraunceys were the son of Hugh and Joan de V., then the
subsequent disputes are reasonable. In 1242 Robert de V. ,
Cumberland/Westm., before king's council, son & heir of Ivo vs John & Hugh
le Franceys [Curia Regis]. It seems that Hugh and his son John were securing
their interest in Maulds Meaburn. If there were no marriage, why would Hugh
and John le F. believe they had a claim prior to the gift of Robert de V.? I
am troubled, however, that transactions seem founded on the lease of Ivo's
son, Robert to John le F., not dower. Another observation is if Joan had no
heirs, her moiety probably reverted to Lawrence and his heirs and would
discount a marriage between Joan and Hugh le Fraunceys. Joan may have been
alive as late as 1288 when Lawrence's son, Robert, quitclaimed for fee his
right and claim in Meaburn Mauld
Nicholson and Burns in The History and Antiquities of the Counties of
Westmoreland and Cumberland state Gilbert le Fraunceys was the son of Philip
and it was this Gilbert's son, Richard who married the daughter of Michael
de Harcla who was in king's ward.
In 1315 Richard le F. was holding Meaburn Maud of Robert de Clifford by
homage and fealty. I know that the properties of the Viponts in the line of
Robert and Idonea de Busli descended to the Cliffords but there are at least
two instances of the Cliffords involved in the lands which were possessed by
Ivo's descendants.
Pat
----------
My information is from C&WAAS, Art. XIX. Vol. is in question. I do not have
your article, 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont, le Franceys and de
Vernon' but will attempt to secure a copy.
Maud de Morville m. William de Veteriponte. Their son Ivo m. Isabel de
Lancaster and possibly Sybil de Thoresby.
Ivo b. bef. 1160, d. 1239 had:
1.Robert who in 27H3 [1243] granted Meaburn to John le F., son of Hugh. for
yearly service; John le F. regranting peaceable use to Joan, d/o Ivo
2.Lawrence m. Eda and had Robert
3.Nicholas b. c. 1200-1215 m. Annabella of the Langton de Veteripontes
4.Jania m. Alan Richemond
5.Joan m. Hugh le Fraunceys?
6.Alan [perhaps]
I agree that Ivo granted his daughter, Joan, her moiety of Maulds Meaburn
and, so far as I have found, is not referred to as an heiress.
The charter of Ivo to Joan is lengthy but specific: All these I and my heirs
have given to the same Joan, to be held and to be possessed of me and my
heirs, by Joan and her heirs and assigns or by any one to whom she shall
give any of it at any time:--all these with all that belongs to all, to hold
in good and hereditary and free and undisturbed possession in entirety in
full and peaceful and honorable tenure, with the roads," etc. She was
obliged to give Ivo and his heirs "one 'sore' sparrow hawk or one penny at
the festival of St. Lawrence." Her sister Jania was married by this time to
Alan de Richemund as Ivo mentions he "gave to him [Alan] in marriage with
Jama [Jania] my daughter." This charter predates 1239 when Ivo is recorded
as dead and his son and heir Robert leases his lands in Westmoreland to John
le Fraunceys, Robert becoming "mesne lord between the Bailiols and John le
Fraunceys." Robert was dead by 1277 when his brother, Lawrence claims
Maulds Meaburn including the mill which Ivo gave Joan. All according to
Ragg in C&WAAS, Vol. VII, p. 277-282, Art. XVIII, Mauld's Meaburn, the
Alston Mines and a branch of the Veteripontes.
If John le Fraunceys were the son of Hugh and Joan de V., then the
subsequent disputes are reasonable. In 1242 Robert de V. ,
Cumberland/Westm., before king's council, son & heir of Ivo vs John & Hugh
le Franceys [Curia Regis]. It seems that Hugh and his son John were securing
their interest in Maulds Meaburn. If there were no marriage, why would Hugh
and John le F. believe they had a claim prior to the gift of Robert de V.? I
am troubled, however, that transactions seem founded on the lease of Ivo's
son, Robert to John le F., not dower. Another observation is if Joan had no
heirs, her moiety probably reverted to Lawrence and his heirs and would
discount a marriage between Joan and Hugh le Fraunceys. Joan may have been
alive as late as 1288 when Lawrence's son, Robert, quitclaimed for fee his
right and claim in Meaburn Mauld
Nicholson and Burns in The History and Antiquities of the Counties of
Westmoreland and Cumberland state Gilbert le Fraunceys was the son of Philip
and it was this Gilbert's son, Richard who married the daughter of Michael
de Harcla who was in king's ward.
In 1315 Richard le F. was holding Meaburn Maud of Robert de Clifford by
homage and fealty. I know that the properties of the Viponts in the line of
Robert and Idonea de Busli descended to the Cliffords but there are at least
two instances of the Cliffords involved in the lands which were possessed by
Ivo's descendants.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 2:02 PM
Pat,
I guess that Ragg put in the 'son of John' and it doesn't appear in the
original claim. Otherwise there are problems! The correction is only to
the pedigree given in summary on p393 of the Maud's Meaburn article.
There are numerous family members linked conjecturally, but Hugh is the
father of John and Adam, the latter the corrected father of Gilbert.
There is just the one Gilbert. Hugh's wife is left blank (and Adam's).
I don't know if you have this from ib.,p325 (I think we are quoting
from different issues, I also don't have access at the moment but your
piece may be NS vol. XI, mine vol. XII):
'In 1287 he [Richard le F/Vernon] claims to be acquitted by John de
Baliol of service to Isabel de Clifford for Meaburn Maud (de Banco 66,
Hill., Ed. I.) In 1287 also arose a question between him and Robert,
son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont, who was heir of Joan, which was
tried before the Assize to settle any claim on the manor of Meaburn
Maud Robert had granted him a charter of quitclaim and admitted it;
the question had come up before, but Robert's case went no further at
that time because Gilbert, against whom he brought the case, had died
between the obtaining of the writ and the trial.'
If Lawrence was indeed heir of Joan, it would effectively rule out her
having been the mother of any le Fraunceys sons; I don't know if the
original text is supplied in the article, I only have copies of (43!)
pages of it most concerned with the Vernons. But it would certainly be
worth tracking down, if it isn't the one you have already.
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Matthew,
Thank you for your reply.
Forgive my transposition. I stand corrected, p. 326 C&WAAS, Mauld's Meaburn
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, " While this was going on John le
Fraunceys bade Robert of Appleby shoot him with an arrow, and Robert did as
he was asked and shot him in the breast and Nicholas very quickly died."
May I ask, if Ragg corrected his entry on p. 324 of this article: "In 1277/8
Lawrence de Veteriponte brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against
Gilbert le Fraunceys, son of John"? Or was this of another generation? I do
not have access to C&WAAS and was able to copy only portions at Kendal so am
very anxious to see Ragg's corrections.
I shall work on additional support for the marriage of Joan de Veteripont,
daughter of Ivo, to Hugh le Fraunceys.
Again, many thanks.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:07 AM
Pat,
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes
over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the
inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have
married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis,
Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de
Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald
to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary,
1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had
or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for
any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir,
Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of
Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s
Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian
and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married
Idonea
de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date
for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the
Countess
of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret
Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon],
of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect
Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom
the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's
son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Vipont-Vernon
Pat,
I can't really add further to this without access to libraries, but I
don't know anything about N&B's Philip le Fraunceys; there is no Philip
in Ragg's tree.
It does seem odd that Joan would receive a grant from her father if it
wasn't a dowry; and yet there is no mention of any prospecive husband.
Likewise, with all the legal action, one might expect some mention if
there were any formal connection between the le Fraunceys family and
Joan. But maybe something will turn up...!
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
I can't really add further to this without access to libraries, but I
don't know anything about N&B's Philip le Fraunceys; there is no Philip
in Ragg's tree.
It does seem odd that Joan would receive a grant from her father if it
wasn't a dowry; and yet there is no mention of any prospecive husband.
Likewise, with all the legal action, one might expect some mention if
there were any formal connection between the le Fraunceys family and
Joan. But maybe something will turn up...!
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Matthew,
My information is from C&WAAS, Art. XIX. Vol. is in question. I do not have
your article, 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont, le Franceys and de
Vernon' but will attempt to secure a copy.
Maud de Morville m. William de Veteriponte. Their son Ivo m. Isabel de
Lancaster and possibly Sybil de Thoresby.
Ivo b. bef. 1160, d. 1239 had:
1.Robert who in 27H3 [1243] granted Meaburn to John le F., son of Hugh. for
yearly service; John le F. regranting peaceable use to Joan, d/o Ivo
2.Lawrence m. Eda and had Robert
3.Nicholas b. c. 1200-1215 m. Annabella of the Langton de Veteripontes
4.Jania m. Alan Richemond
5.Joan m. Hugh le Fraunceys?
6.Alan [perhaps]
I agree that Ivo granted his daughter, Joan, her moiety of Maulds Meaburn
and, so far as I have found, is not referred to as an heiress.
The charter of Ivo to Joan is lengthy but specific: All these I and my heirs
have given to the same Joan, to be held and to be possessed of me and my
heirs, by Joan and her heirs and assigns or by any one to whom she shall
give any of it at any time:--all these with all that belongs to all, to hold
in good and hereditary and free and undisturbed possession in entirety in
full and peaceful and honorable tenure, with the roads," etc. She was
obliged to give Ivo and his heirs "one 'sore' sparrow hawk or one penny at
the festival of St. Lawrence." Her sister Jania was married by this time to
Alan de Richemund as Ivo mentions he "gave to him [Alan] in marriage with
Jama [Jania] my daughter." This charter predates 1239 when Ivo is recorded
as dead and his son and heir Robert leases his lands in Westmoreland to John
le Fraunceys, Robert becoming "mesne lord between the Bailiols and John le
Fraunceys." Robert was dead by 1277 when his brother, Lawrence claims
Maulds Meaburn including the mill which Ivo gave Joan. All according to
Ragg in C&WAAS, Vol. VII, p. 277-282, Art. XVIII, Mauld's Meaburn, the
Alston Mines and a branch of the Veteripontes.
If John le Fraunceys were the son of Hugh and Joan de V., then the
subsequent disputes are reasonable. In 1242 Robert de V. ,
Cumberland/Westm., before king's council, son & heir of Ivo vs John & Hugh
le Franceys [Curia Regis]. It seems that Hugh and his son John were securing
their interest in Maulds Meaburn. If there were no marriage, why would Hugh
and John le F. believe they had a claim prior to the gift of Robert de V.? I
am troubled, however, that transactions seem founded on the lease of Ivo's
son, Robert to John le F., not dower. Another observation is if Joan had no
heirs, her moiety probably reverted to Lawrence and his heirs and would
discount a marriage between Joan and Hugh le Fraunceys. Joan may have been
alive as late as 1288 when Lawrence's son, Robert, quitclaimed for fee his
right and claim in Meaburn Mauld
Nicholson and Burns in The History and Antiquities of the Counties of
Westmoreland and Cumberland state Gilbert le Fraunceys was the son of Philip
and it was this Gilbert's son, Richard who married the daughter of Michael
de Harcla who was in king's ward.
In 1315 Richard le F. was holding Meaburn Maud of Robert de Clifford by
homage and fealty. I know that the properties of the Viponts in the line of
Robert and Idonea de Busli descended to the Cliffords but there are at least
two instances of the Cliffords involved in the lands which were possessed by
Ivo's descendants.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 2:02 PM
Pat,
I guess that Ragg put in the 'son of John' and it doesn't appear in the
original claim. Otherwise there are problems! The correction is only to
the pedigree given in summary on p393 of the Maud's Meaburn article.
There are numerous family members linked conjecturally, but Hugh is the
father of John and Adam, the latter the corrected father of Gilbert.
There is just the one Gilbert. Hugh's wife is left blank (and Adam's).
I don't know if you have this from ib.,p325 (I think we are quoting
from different issues, I also don't have access at the moment but your
piece may be NS vol. XI, mine vol. XII):
'In 1287 he [Richard le F/Vernon] claims to be acquitted by John de
Baliol of service to Isabel de Clifford for Meaburn Maud (de Banco 66,
Hill., Ed. I.) In 1287 also arose a question between him and Robert,
son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont, who was heir of Joan, which was
tried before the Assize to settle any claim on the manor of Meaburn
Maud Robert had granted him a charter of quitclaim and admitted it;
the question had come up before, but Robert's case went no further at
that time because Gilbert, against whom he brought the case, had died
between the obtaining of the writ and the trial.'
If Lawrence was indeed heir of Joan, it would effectively rule out her
having been the mother of any le Fraunceys sons; I don't know if the
original text is supplied in the article, I only have copies of (43!)
pages of it most concerned with the Vernons. But it would certainly be
worth tracking down, if it isn't the one you have already.
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Matthew,
Thank you for your reply.
Forgive my transposition. I stand corrected, p. 326 C&WAAS, Mauld's Meaburn
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, " While this was going on John le
Fraunceys bade Robert of Appleby shoot him with an arrow, and Robert did as
he was asked and shot him in the breast and Nicholas very quickly died.."
May I ask, if Ragg corrected his entry on p. 324 of this article: "In 1277/8
Lawrence de Veteriponte brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against
Gilbert le Fraunceys, son of John"? Or was this of another generation? I do
not have access to C&WAAS and was able to copy only portions at Kendal so am
very anxious to see Ragg's corrections.
I shall work on additional support for the marriage of Joan de Veteripont,
daughter of Ivo, to Hugh le Fraunceys.
Again, many thanks.
Pat
----------
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Mon, May 30, 2005, 6:07 AM
Pat,
I was away and have only just seen your message- very interesting
theory about a possible Vipont/Fraunceys marriage, it does seem there
is more room for it than for a direct Vernon/Vipont match. Richard le
Fraunceys/de Vernon's Harcla marriage seems pretty secure-
incidentally, it was he who was implicated in the 1286 murder of
Nicholas Hastings, not the other way around; Richard died about 1330.
Also, Gilbert le Fraunceys was son of Adam, and nephew (not son) of
John; Ragg corrected his original theory in the C&WAAS Transactions, NS
XVI pp167-8, in light of the marriage contract mentioned in Todd's
post.
Incidentally, Cox states that the tomb of Sir George Vernon (d.1567) at
Bakewell
includes the quartering arg., six annulets, gu., 3,2,1. He doesn't give
a name, but these are the right colours for the arms of Avenel given by
VCH Bucks, only lacking a fess. If these arms do not appear in the Med.
Ordinary, it may be that the Avenels of Haddon were a little too early
to actually use arms, but a cadet branch later bore the arms as in VCH
and the 'undifferenced' coat (ie, without the fess) was retrospectively
applied to the Haddon family and so quartered by the Vernons. It's
possible that the arms were painted incorrectly somewhere, matching
Vipont, leading to the supposed marriage being inserted into the
pedigree- or vice versa! The Avenel arms certainly have a reason to be
there, while Vipont may or may not (the Joan of the theory was
apparently not an heiress, even if Maud's Meaburn came through her).
Matthew
"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
Todd, Tim, Leo and Matthew,
I have tried to assimilate your replies with the notes I have.
The Viponts and Fraunceys families were involved in protracted disputes
over
Meaburn. Maud de Morville wife of William de Veteriponte passed Mauld's
Meaburn to her son Ivo.
I believe, based on a pedigree of the Viponts in Harrison's History of
Yorkshire, that Joan de Veteriponte, daughter of Ivo , married Hugh le
Fraunceys, living 1256, which does not answer the question of whether
Richard le Fraunceys-Vernon married a Vipont. It may support the
inclusion
of Vipont arms in the 1623 Visitation of Shropshire. I agree that it must
be determined if or which Richard Vernon a Margaret Vipont may have
married.
Ivo de V. had granted his daughter, Joan ³one tof with croft which was
Alan¹s formerly reeve of Meaburne,² and "parts of Smaleburghamis,
Grofflat,
Setebergh, Trellesic, Gretland belonging to Meaburn.." It appears that ca.
1277 Joan's brother Lawrence claimed his late brother, Robert's, manor of
Meaburn.
Easter 1243, John le Fraunceys v. Joan de V. claiming the custody of the
lands of William de Pickeney and for occupying land in the moiety of
Meauburn Mauld which he claimed was his. Joan produced the charter of Ivo
and prevailed.
1247 Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the
manor of Mauld¹s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to
him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin.
John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands
and tenements granted by her father.
1277/8 Lawrence de V. , Ivo's son, took action against William de
Swinburn.
He also brought an assize of mort d¹ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys
[dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession
of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a
mill in Maulds Meaburn
1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's son), acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald
to
be the right of Richard le Fraunceys by deed dated at Wynandersworth on
Wednesday next after the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary,
1288.
Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me
and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had
or
in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I
nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for
any
right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits:
(among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir,
Henry
de Stavely. In this same year, Richard le Fraunceys son-in-law of
Michael
Harcla (Hartley) was murdered by Nicholas Hastings. Ragg's Mauld¹s
Meaburn,
and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings, Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian
and
Archaeological Society Transactions. 1263c, 10 June. Robert de la Ferte
pleas that Robert de V. should discharge him from service for land in
Maulds Meaburn.
GENUKI: Pitchcott was described in 1806 in "Magna Britannia" as follows:
PITCHCOTE, in the hundred of Ashendon and deanery of Waddesdon, lies about
seven miles north-west of Aylesbury. The manor was in the family of Vernon
as early as the year 1377, and continued to be their property in 1557. It
was anciently held under the Bohuns, earls of Hereford. In 1603 it was
purchased of Sir Walter Pye by an ancestor of Thomas Saunders esq. who is
the present proprietor, and patron of the rectory.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Pat
----------
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Vipont-Vernon
Date: Thu, May 19, 2005, 11:50 PM
Patricia Junkin wrote:
Dear Leo,
Thank you very much for the reply.
I did see the Burke's reference. Robert de Veteripont had married
Idonea
de
Busli by 1198, I believe when he accounted £85 for Honour of Tikhill.
Whether or not he had married 1) Helen of Allerston, I cannot say with
certainty. . Harrison¹s History of Yorkshire gives a 1235 death date
for
Idonea. In 1242 the lands of Idonea were put in the hands of the
Countess
of
Augi. Curia Regis seems to indicate a post mortem dispute of Idonea's
estate.
If Richard de Vernon was born in 1240, it seems both he and Margaret
Vipont
were of a later generation. Another source states 1252 Robert [Vernon],
of
Nether Haddon; had a dau and heiress: (1) Hawise; m 1231 Gilbert le
Franceys, a son of Adam le Franceys, s of John le Franceys, of Meaburn,
Cumberland. If this is provable, then I would venture to suspect
Margaret
was in the line of Ivo through Robert or Nicholas de Veteripont to whom
the
Morville estate of Meaburn passed. In 1288 Robert de V. (Lawrence's
son),
acknowledged the manor of Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le
Fraunceys by deed.....
I will appreciate other evidence which may identify this Margaret.
I think you are perhaps asking the wrong question. _Burke's_, Leo's
source, is far adrift when it comes to the Vernons and their marriages.
Rather than looking for the parents of "Margaret Vipont, wife of
Richard de Vernon", you need to ask whether Richard actually married a
Margaret at all. (And while we are at it, which Richard are we talking
about here?) In 2003, I posted the following summary of contemporary
documents relating to this period in the Vernon of Haddon pedigree:
1257 - Richard de Vernon and John le Fraunceys agree that Richard
will give his niece Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vernon, in
marriage to Gilbert, son of Adam le Fraunceys and nephew of John
in marriage, John granting the couple land in Routhcliff or
Meaburn, Richard granting them Pitchcott, Bucks.
1278 - Gilbert le Fraunceys has died. His son and heir (by his
wife Hawise de Vernon) is son Richard le Fraunceys, aged 15.
Subsequent to his father's death and without the King's
permission, he is wed to Isabella de Harcla, daughter of Michael
de Harcla.
1282 - Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert le Fraunceys holding
Harlaston.
1290 - Richard granted to his son Richard, along with Eleanor,
daughter of Giles Fines (presumably his fiance), the property of
Pitchcott, Bucks. Two years later, it was granted to Giles
during their minority.
1302 - before this date, Pitchcott has reverted to the father.
In the same year, Richard and Isabel are involved in a fine with
Michael de Harcla regarding Meaburn Mauld (Maud's Meaburn).
1310 - de Banco case indicates Richard de Vernon, son of Gilbert
le Fraunceys by Hawise de Vernon, daughter of Robert de Vernon,
son of Matilda disputes presentation to Pitchcott.
1312 - Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant.
1314 - Richard le Fraunceys holding Meaburn
1323 - Maud, widow of son Richard sues the father for her dowery.
1324 - William de Freford, who with James and Henry de Harcla had
been granted Meaburn and Newby to hold in trust for Isabel, wife
of Richard de Vernon and her heirs, having grown tired of his
charge, resigns from the trust, returning the land to Richard
1330 - William, grandson and heir of Richard succeeds. He is
still a minor. Maud, widow of his father, and Isabel, widow of
his grandfather, claim dower the next year.
1342 - Isabel de Vernon has suit regarding Meaburn
We thus have:
1. Gilbert (son of Alan) le Fraunceys m. 1257 Hawise, daughter of
Robert de Vernon, and eventual heiress of her uncle Richard de
Vernon and grandmother Matilda.
2. Richard le Fraunceys/de Vernon b. ca. 1263, m. ca, 1278 Isabel
de Harcla. He d. in or bef. 1330, his widow surviving through 1342.
3. Richard de Vernon, engaged 1290, to Eleanor de Fenes, but
unclear if they ever married. If so, she d. bef. 1302, and he remarried
bef. 1312, Maud (de Camville). He died bef. 1323, while she was
still living in 1331.
4. William de Vernon, still a minor in 1331.
I asked this once before, but does anyone know of any older holders of
Pitchcott? I find in an on-line encyclopedia the following:
"In manorial rolls of 1176 the village is recorded as Pichecote."
Anyone know to what source this might refer?
taf