Dear group,
I found a reference to an old posting from this newsgroup referring to
Renaud, count of Roucy, who was not the person died on 12 March 973,
and who was also not Renaud/Ragnvald/Ragenold the Dane.
Based on conclusions below (see Settipani's contribution at the bottom,
I have the following questions, on which some input from your side is
well appreciated :
1. who was the Renaud, who died on 12 March 973 ?
2. which Renaud married with Alberade de Lorraine ? Was this still the
Renaud, count of Roucy, or one of the other two possible Renaud's ?
I am very much interested in the two brothers Werner
(Werenharius/Garnier)and Rainaldus (Reginoldus/Renaud)who played a role
in the politics of Lower Lorraine, until they were killed in 973 (!),
by the Reginar family of the Hainault-county.
Thanks, Wim
--------------------
128710214770. Renaud I Comte De ROUCY &
Rheims,415,1444,1447,1784,2701,2702,2703,2704 son of Renaud De Roucy
Comte De SOISSONS and Unknown, was born about 925 in Roucy, Marne,
Champagne, France,2705 died on 10 May 967 in Reims, Marne, Champagne,
France 1784,2703,2704,2705,2706 about age 42, and was buried in Abbey
Of St. Remi, Reims, France. Other names for Renaud were Ragenolde,
Renaud, Renaud I (Ragnvald) Comte De Roucy & RHEIMS, Ragnvald Of ROUCY,
Renaud, and Count De ROUCY.
General Notes:
The ancestry of Renaud is questionable. I give below (1) AR, which
suggests Herbert II de Vermandois. (2) Peter Stewart, who rejects AR,
and finds a claim of "Ragenold the Dane" as father. (3) Christian
Settipani (who I am following) who rejects the Dane in favor of an
Anjou connection.
Alberade of Lorraine, m. Renaud, d. 15 Mar 973, Count of Rheims and
Roucy. (He is called the 8th son of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois,
but is not so given by Pere Anselme; though Anselme does give Hugh,
Archbishop of Rheims, as a son of Herbert II). [Ancestral Roots line
151-19]
Note: Alan Wilson names Renaud's father as Rognvald (a Dane) of
Burgundy. Leo van de Pas agrees with Alan, giving Ragenold "the Viking"
a birth year of c900, which would not agree with Settipani's
identification of him nor his ancestry, so I am omitting it.
----------------------
The following post to SGM, 30 Nov 2000, by Peter Stewart, refutes
Herbert de Vermandois as father of Renaud, and, later, suggests a
Danish marauder as father:
From: Stewart, Peter (Peter.Stewart@crsrehab.gov.au)
Subject: RE: Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-11-30 19:44:31 PST
-----Original Message-----
From: GRHaleJr@cs.com [mailto:GRHaleJr@cs.com]
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2000 9:04
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Renaud de Roucy
In researching Renaud de Roucy b. abt 0931, Roucy(or Reims), France; d.
15 March 0973 I have encountered two different parentages as follows:
Ragnvald "the Viking" of Denmark b. abt 0885; d. abt 0925 (I know it
appears that the son was born 6 years after the death of the father;
but this is from the same source.)
Herbert II de Vermandois b. abt 0884, Vermandois; d. 23 February 0943.
There is also a Hubert of Burgundy which is I would bet is Herbert II,
although his father is Hubert/Herbert also.
Does anyone have the correct data on this person.
Of course I hope the correct parentage is Herbert II since his lineage
carries me back to Charlemagne.
This one is not going to fall your preferred way: for the children of
Heribert II (Renaud not among them) see Christian Settipani, *La
préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), pp
223-230 and Michel Bur, *La formation du comté de Champagne v. 950 -
v. 1150*, Mémoires des Annales de l'Est 54 (Nancy, 1977), appendix I,
pp 507-513. For the origins of Renaud, count of Roucy see the latter,
pp 134-139 & table 13, and the sources cited.
According to ES III, 675A (which does not identify his father, & cites
Bur along with sources he also used) your Renaud occurs as early as
923, built the château at Roucy in 948, and died on 10 May 967 - where
did you find the date 15 March 973? Bur suggests he was son of another
Renaud, and either a half-brother of count Waldricus (Gaudry), whose
son Guy was count of Soissons from 974 to 995, or related to the counts
of Anjou.
Perhaps Todd Farmerie will comment on whether there is any evidence
that the elder Renaud came from Denmark.
Peter Stewart
- - - later post on the next day (1 Dec 2000) - - -
The claim that the elder Renaud was a Dane depends on identifying him
with the Viking raider Ragenold, who according to the annalist Flodoard
was invading France at about the same time as Rollo of Normandy. I'm
not sure what the most recent opinions are regarding this possible
identification.
Stewart Baldwin
--------------------
The following post to SGM, 2 Dec 2000, by Christian Settipani (a noted
French genealogist) suggests an earlier Renaud, with an Anjou
connection, as father of Renaud:
From: Settipani (inapit@club-internet.fr)
Subject: Re : Renaud de Roucy
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2000-12-02 06:58:28 PST
I have examined lenghtly the family of this person in my paper : 'Les
comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances', in Family Trees and the Roots of
Politics, ed. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267, at p.
222-225. I think that the equivalence Renaud of Roucy / Ragenold the
Vikink is a false one and that there is no link between the two. Renaud
de Roucy is probably the son of another Renaud, named from 924 to 941
in Anjou, and perhaps count of Soissons. This first Renaud could be a
nephew of Fulk I of Anjou (+ 942).
CS
renaud,+973
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: renaud,+973
On 18 May 2005 09:16:29 -0700, "wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote:
Eduard Hlawitschka, Die Anfänge des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen
(Saarbrücken, 1969) has a little bit on the two brothers Reginold and
Werner who died in 973, but not much. A genealogical table on page
101 shows the two brothers with no parents stated, and gives Werner a
daughter Godila who married Liuthar and had Werner plus others
unnamed.
Renaud of Roucy, according to most, although at least one scholar has
suggested that the children attributed to Renaud and Alberada were in
fact only children of Alberada, and that the name of Alberada's
husband is unknown. [Constance Brittain Bouchard, Sword, miter, and
cloister: nobility and the Church in Burgandy, 980-1198 (Cornell
University Press, 1987), pp. 268-9]. (I have not examined this in any
detail, so I am unable to offer an opinion on Bouchard's suggestion.)
What reason (other than possessing the same name) do you have for
believing that there was a connection between the man who died in 973
and Renaud de Roucy?
Stewart Baldwin
I found a reference to an old posting from this newsgroup referring to
Renaud, count of Roucy, who was not the person died on 12 March 973,
and who was also not Renaud/Ragnvald/Ragenold the Dane.
Based on conclusions below (see Settipani's contribution at the bottom,
I have the following questions, on which some input from your side is
well appreciated :
1. who was the Renaud, who died on 12 March 973 ?
Eduard Hlawitschka, Die Anfänge des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen
(Saarbrücken, 1969) has a little bit on the two brothers Reginold and
Werner who died in 973, but not much. A genealogical table on page
101 shows the two brothers with no parents stated, and gives Werner a
daughter Godila who married Liuthar and had Werner plus others
unnamed.
2. which Renaud married with Alberade de Lorraine ? Was this still the
Renaud, count of Roucy, or one of the other two possible Renaud's ?
Renaud of Roucy, according to most, although at least one scholar has
suggested that the children attributed to Renaud and Alberada were in
fact only children of Alberada, and that the name of Alberada's
husband is unknown. [Constance Brittain Bouchard, Sword, miter, and
cloister: nobility and the Church in Burgandy, 980-1198 (Cornell
University Press, 1987), pp. 268-9]. (I have not examined this in any
detail, so I am unable to offer an opinion on Bouchard's suggestion.)
I am very much interested in the two brothers Werner
(Werenharius/Garnier)and Rainaldus (Reginoldus/Renaud)who played a role
in the politics of Lower Lorraine, until they were killed in 973 (!),
by the Reginar family of the Hainault-county.
What reason (other than possessing the same name) do you have for
believing that there was a connection between the man who died in 973
and Renaud de Roucy?
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: renaud,+973
"wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:1116432989.200571.23680@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
The identification of a Viking raider named Ragenold with Renaud presumed to
be the husband of Alberada, and father of her sons Giselbert and Bruno, was
proposed by Maximilien Melleville in 'Les comtes de Roucy', _Bulletin de la
Société académique de Laon_ 8 (1859). Before then the count named Renaud had
been called a son of Heribert of Vermandois, but this was merely was an
error made by Guillaume Marlot in _Metropolis Remensis historia_ vol. II
(1679) and repeated by Nicholas le Long in _Histoire ecclésiastique et
civile du diocèse de Laon_ (Châlons, 1783).
There are some difficulties with Melleville's identification, although it
has been accepted with more or less reservation by most historians since his
time. I mentioned Michel Bur's alternative suggestion before: Christian
Settipani has made one of his onomastic jigsaw solutions out of various
names that he says are the same (e.g. "Raino" and "Rainald") and/or that he
finds in vague conjunctions with each other and thinks must only occur
within a close kindred, this time linked to the Widonids - however, so far
he has put forward no case for this to persuade anyone who doesn't share his
somewhat arbitrary preconceptions on the subject, and it remains just
another "possibility".
What information is given in your sources about the "other two" Renauds and
the death of one of these (I suppose) on 12 March 973?
Peter Stewart
news:1116432989.200571.23680@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Dear group,
I found a reference to an old posting from this newsgroup
referring to Renaud, count of Roucy, who was not the person
died on 12 March 973, and who was also not
Renaud/Ragnvald/Ragenold the Dane.
Based on conclusions below (see Settipani's contribution at
the bottom, I have the following questions, on which some
input from your side is well appreciated :
1. who was the Renaud, who died on 12 March 973 ?
2. which Renaud married with Alberade de Lorraine ? Was this
still the Renaud, count of Roucy, or one of the other two
possible Renaud's ?
The identification of a Viking raider named Ragenold with Renaud presumed to
be the husband of Alberada, and father of her sons Giselbert and Bruno, was
proposed by Maximilien Melleville in 'Les comtes de Roucy', _Bulletin de la
Société académique de Laon_ 8 (1859). Before then the count named Renaud had
been called a son of Heribert of Vermandois, but this was merely was an
error made by Guillaume Marlot in _Metropolis Remensis historia_ vol. II
(1679) and repeated by Nicholas le Long in _Histoire ecclésiastique et
civile du diocèse de Laon_ (Châlons, 1783).
There are some difficulties with Melleville's identification, although it
has been accepted with more or less reservation by most historians since his
time. I mentioned Michel Bur's alternative suggestion before: Christian
Settipani has made one of his onomastic jigsaw solutions out of various
names that he says are the same (e.g. "Raino" and "Rainald") and/or that he
finds in vague conjunctions with each other and thinks must only occur
within a close kindred, this time linked to the Widonids - however, so far
he has put forward no case for this to persuade anyone who doesn't share his
somewhat arbitrary preconceptions on the subject, and it remains just
another "possibility".
What information is given in your sources about the "other two" Renauds and
the death of one of these (I suppose) on 12 March 973?
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: renaud,+973
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dfjn81161em01ovprb9vrr72vlnt1ennfj@4ax.com...
<snip>
Constance Bouchard has touched on this a few times in print, but without
mustering a cogent argument.
She implies wrongly that the conventional view of the Roucy comital family's
origins was first set down by Ferdinand Lot, and against his modest and
straightforward remark about the transmission of the name Rainald she makes
a total hash of any case of her own. She thinks it unlikely that chroniclers
would have been silent on the marriage of such a prominent woman as Alberada
to a well-known Viking, yet she also thinks it quite possible that they
would keep quiet about her fanciful theory that Alberada didn't even marry
so that her children were illegitimate. She notes that her sons were named
after her own father Giselbert and maternal uncle Bruno, as if this made a
telling point - without mentioning the obvious fact that a Viking father
would not have any relatives of his own with Christian names to pass on to
his sons.
Peter Stewart
news:dfjn81161em01ovprb9vrr72vlnt1ennfj@4ax.com...
On 18 May 2005 09:16:29 -0700, "wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote:
<snip>
Renaud of Roucy, according to most, although at least one scholar has
suggested that the children attributed to Renaud and Alberada were in
fact only children of Alberada, and that the name of Alberada's
husband is unknown. [Constance Brittain Bouchard, Sword, miter, and
cloister: nobility and the Church in Burgandy, 980-1198 (Cornell
University Press, 1987), pp. 268-9]. (I have not examined this in any
detail, so I am unable to offer an opinion on Bouchard's suggestion.)
Constance Bouchard has touched on this a few times in print, but without
mustering a cogent argument.
She implies wrongly that the conventional view of the Roucy comital family's
origins was first set down by Ferdinand Lot, and against his modest and
straightforward remark about the transmission of the name Rainald she makes
a total hash of any case of her own. She thinks it unlikely that chroniclers
would have been silent on the marriage of such a prominent woman as Alberada
to a well-known Viking, yet she also thinks it quite possible that they
would keep quiet about her fanciful theory that Alberada didn't even marry
so that her children were illegitimate. She notes that her sons were named
after her own father Giselbert and maternal uncle Bruno, as if this made a
telling point - without mentioning the obvious fact that a Viking father
would not have any relatives of his own with Christian names to pass on to
his sons.
Peter Stewart
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: renaud,+973
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:44:35 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
Although I am not ready to accept Bouchard's case against the
marriage, I have not seen a clear case presented for the marriage in
the two papers I have read which ought to include such evidence. In
his recent paper on the succession of the counts of Roucy ["La
succession au comté de Roucy aux environs de l'an mil. Les origines de
l'archevêque de Reims Ebles (1021-1033)", in Keats-Rohan & Settipani,
eds., Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident médiéval (Oxford, 2000),
75-84], Jean-Noël Mathieu gives the marriage as if it were well
established, and does not even mention Bouchard's objection, which
seems like a major lapse to me, since his theory about the ancestry of
Ebles would suffer serious harm if Renaud were not the husband of
Alberada.
Meanwhile, H. Moranvillé, in his article on the early counts of Roucy
["Origine de la Maison de Roucy", Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes
83 (1922):11-42], mentions Lauer's doubts about the marriage (p. 16,
n. 5), but then counters it with evidence that Bruno was the son of
Alberada, evidently missing the point that this does not help unless
you also have clear evidence that Bruno was the son of Renaud (and
direct evidence to that effect seems to be lacking). However, it does
look as though various bits of data mentioned by Moranvillé in this
article could be assembled to make a reasonable case for the marriage,
assuming that none of the primary sources cited are being
misrepresented.
As some might have guessed, my interest in this is because Renaud and
Alberada would appear in most ancestor tables of Henry II of England.
However, it looks as though their presence in that table cannot be
considered certain, not because of the present problem, but because it
is not clear that Alberada's daughter Ermengard was the mother of
Beatrix, wife successively of count Geoffroy of Gâtinais and Hugues du
Perche, and paternal grandmother of count Fulk IV of Anjou. Although
Beatrix was clearly a daughter of Alberic of Mâcon, some current
reconstructions of the troublesome genealogy and chronology of the
counts of Gâtinais would require her to be a daughter of Alberic by an
earlier marriage than the one to Ermengard, cutting the line at that
generation.
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dfjn81161em01ovprb9vrr72vlnt1ennfj@4ax.com...
On 18 May 2005 09:16:29 -0700, "wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote:
snip
Renaud of Roucy, according to most, although at least one scholar has
suggested that the children attributed to Renaud and Alberada were in
fact only children of Alberada, and that the name of Alberada's
husband is unknown. [Constance Brittain Bouchard, Sword, miter, and
cloister: nobility and the Church in Burgandy, 980-1198 (Cornell
University Press, 1987), pp. 268-9]. (I have not examined this in any
detail, so I am unable to offer an opinion on Bouchard's suggestion.)
Constance Bouchard has touched on this a few times in print, but without
mustering a cogent argument.
She implies wrongly that the conventional view of the Roucy comital family's
origins was first set down by Ferdinand Lot, and against his modest and
straightforward remark about the transmission of the name Rainald she makes
a total hash of any case of her own. She thinks it unlikely that chroniclers
would have been silent on the marriage of such a prominent woman as Alberada
to a well-known Viking, yet she also thinks it quite possible that they
would keep quiet about her fanciful theory that Alberada didn't even marry
so that her children were illegitimate. She notes that her sons were named
after her own father Giselbert and maternal uncle Bruno, as if this made a
telling point - without mentioning the obvious fact that a Viking father
would not have any relatives of his own with Christian names to pass on to
his sons.
Although I am not ready to accept Bouchard's case against the
marriage, I have not seen a clear case presented for the marriage in
the two papers I have read which ought to include such evidence. In
his recent paper on the succession of the counts of Roucy ["La
succession au comté de Roucy aux environs de l'an mil. Les origines de
l'archevêque de Reims Ebles (1021-1033)", in Keats-Rohan & Settipani,
eds., Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident médiéval (Oxford, 2000),
75-84], Jean-Noël Mathieu gives the marriage as if it were well
established, and does not even mention Bouchard's objection, which
seems like a major lapse to me, since his theory about the ancestry of
Ebles would suffer serious harm if Renaud were not the husband of
Alberada.
Meanwhile, H. Moranvillé, in his article on the early counts of Roucy
["Origine de la Maison de Roucy", Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes
83 (1922):11-42], mentions Lauer's doubts about the marriage (p. 16,
n. 5), but then counters it with evidence that Bruno was the son of
Alberada, evidently missing the point that this does not help unless
you also have clear evidence that Bruno was the son of Renaud (and
direct evidence to that effect seems to be lacking). However, it does
look as though various bits of data mentioned by Moranvillé in this
article could be assembled to make a reasonable case for the marriage,
assuming that none of the primary sources cited are being
misrepresented.
As some might have guessed, my interest in this is because Renaud and
Alberada would appear in most ancestor tables of Henry II of England.
However, it looks as though their presence in that table cannot be
considered certain, not because of the present problem, but because it
is not clear that Alberada's daughter Ermengard was the mother of
Beatrix, wife successively of count Geoffroy of Gâtinais and Hugues du
Perche, and paternal grandmother of count Fulk IV of Anjou. Although
Beatrix was clearly a daughter of Alberic of Mâcon, some current
reconstructions of the troublesome genealogy and chronology of the
counts of Gâtinais would require her to be a daughter of Alberic by an
earlier marriage than the one to Ermengard, cutting the line at that
generation.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: renaud,+973
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:06:44 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
I believe that the three Renauds to whom "wim" was referring were:
1. Renaud of Roucy.
2. Ragenold the Viking, who disappears from the sources in the 920's,
but has been identified as Renaud of Roucy on numerous occasions. The
case for the identification seems pretty weak to me.
3. Renaud, who was killed in 973, and is mentioned on page 25 of
Mornavillé's article on the counts of Roucy. In answer to my previous
question about the connection between numbers 1 and 3, it appears that
they have often been incorrectly identified (e.g., by Anselme).
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
What information is given in your sources about the
"other two" Renauds and the death of one of these
(I suppose) on 12 March 973?
I believe that the three Renauds to whom "wim" was referring were:
1. Renaud of Roucy.
2. Ragenold the Viking, who disappears from the sources in the 920's,
but has been identified as Renaud of Roucy on numerous occasions. The
case for the identification seems pretty weak to me.
3. Renaud, who was killed in 973, and is mentioned on page 25 of
Mornavillé's article on the counts of Roucy. In answer to my previous
question about the connection between numbers 1 and 3, it appears that
they have often been incorrectly identified (e.g., by Anselme).
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: renaud,+973
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:isq191hvbji186sp5uevrvg4hgu6b9kmtr@4ax.com...
That makes three or two Renauds, depending on taste.
I don't think the case for identifying 1. with 2. is all that weak - the
problem with it is mainly chronological, and that is simply a matter of
silence about him in the narrative sources for 19 or so years.
Flodoard of Rheims mentions Renaud the Viking leader ("Ragenoldus princeps
Nortmannorum") a few times in the 920s, when he was raiding along the Seine
from a fortress by the river. In 924 Flodoard recorded that this Renaud was
devastating the lands of Hugo Magnus, duke of the Franks, because he had not
yet been given possessions of his own within Francia ("quia nondum
possessionem intra Gallias acceperat, terram Hugonis inter Ligerim et
Sequanam depopulatur"). He made a pact in the same year with Hugo, and took
himself off to pillage in Burgundy instead. By the end of that year
(described at the start of 925 by Flodoard) he was pursued by Hugo's
brother-in-law Rodulf, duke of the Burgundians & by then king of the Franks,
with a force including soldiers from Rheims ("Quo Rodulfus rex comperto, in
Burgundiam cum quibusdam ex Francia, militibus scilicet Remensis
aecclesiae...").
After that, nothing is heard until early in 944 when Flodoard tells us that
King Louis IV gave the castrum of Montigny near Soissons, that had belonged
to Heribert of Vermandois, to "Renaud", whom he names without qualification
("Ludowicus rex...revertitur in Franciam. Castrum quoddam vocabulo
Montiniacum, in pago Suessonico situm...Ragenoldo dederat"). Then followed a
round of treachery and pillaging back & forth with Heribert's followers,
until 945 when King Louis raised a force of Vikings to ravage Vermandois
("Ludowicus, collecto secum Nortmannorum exercitu, Viromandinsem pagum
depraedatur"). Hugo Magnus won a victory over the Vikings, expelling them
from his lands, and promptly sent hostages to Rheims so that Renaud would
meet with him on the king's behalf ("Hugo denique dux proeliatus cum
Nortmannis, qui fines suos ingressi fuerant, eos non modica caede fudit, et
a terminis suis eiecit; post haec Remis ad regem mittit, dans obsides, ut
Ragenoldus ex parte regis ad colloquium sibi occurrat").
From this time on there is a consistent record of this Renaud, as count at
Rheims and erecting a castrum at Roucy from which his presumed descendants
took their title. In this context, under 948, he is described as a count of
[King] Louis ("quandam munitionem, quam Ragenoldus comes Ludowici...in loco
qui dicitur Rauciacus aedificabat").
I can't seen any compelling reason to suppose that Flodoard was writing
about two different men named Renaud, rather than giving the highlights as
seen from Rheims of a long process of taming and settling an ambitious
Viking leader, who had been baptised as Renaud.
Peter Stewart
news:isq191hvbji186sp5uevrvg4hgu6b9kmtr@4ax.com...
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:06:44 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
What information is given in your sources about the
"other two" Renauds and the death of one of these
(I suppose) on 12 March 973?
I believe that the three Renauds to whom "wim" was referring were:
1. Renaud of Roucy.
2. Ragenold the Viking, who disappears from the sources in the 920's,
but has been identified as Renaud of Roucy on numerous occasions. The
case for the identification seems pretty weak to me.
3. Renaud, who was killed in 973, and is mentioned on page 25 of
Mornavillé's article on the counts of Roucy. In answer to my previous
question about the connection between numbers 1 and 3, it appears that
they have often been incorrectly identified (e.g., by Anselme).
That makes three or two Renauds, depending on taste.
I don't think the case for identifying 1. with 2. is all that weak - the
problem with it is mainly chronological, and that is simply a matter of
silence about him in the narrative sources for 19 or so years.
Flodoard of Rheims mentions Renaud the Viking leader ("Ragenoldus princeps
Nortmannorum") a few times in the 920s, when he was raiding along the Seine
from a fortress by the river. In 924 Flodoard recorded that this Renaud was
devastating the lands of Hugo Magnus, duke of the Franks, because he had not
yet been given possessions of his own within Francia ("quia nondum
possessionem intra Gallias acceperat, terram Hugonis inter Ligerim et
Sequanam depopulatur"). He made a pact in the same year with Hugo, and took
himself off to pillage in Burgundy instead. By the end of that year
(described at the start of 925 by Flodoard) he was pursued by Hugo's
brother-in-law Rodulf, duke of the Burgundians & by then king of the Franks,
with a force including soldiers from Rheims ("Quo Rodulfus rex comperto, in
Burgundiam cum quibusdam ex Francia, militibus scilicet Remensis
aecclesiae...").
After that, nothing is heard until early in 944 when Flodoard tells us that
King Louis IV gave the castrum of Montigny near Soissons, that had belonged
to Heribert of Vermandois, to "Renaud", whom he names without qualification
("Ludowicus rex...revertitur in Franciam. Castrum quoddam vocabulo
Montiniacum, in pago Suessonico situm...Ragenoldo dederat"). Then followed a
round of treachery and pillaging back & forth with Heribert's followers,
until 945 when King Louis raised a force of Vikings to ravage Vermandois
("Ludowicus, collecto secum Nortmannorum exercitu, Viromandinsem pagum
depraedatur"). Hugo Magnus won a victory over the Vikings, expelling them
from his lands, and promptly sent hostages to Rheims so that Renaud would
meet with him on the king's behalf ("Hugo denique dux proeliatus cum
Nortmannis, qui fines suos ingressi fuerant, eos non modica caede fudit, et
a terminis suis eiecit; post haec Remis ad regem mittit, dans obsides, ut
Ragenoldus ex parte regis ad colloquium sibi occurrat").
From this time on there is a consistent record of this Renaud, as count at
Rheims and erecting a castrum at Roucy from which his presumed descendants
took their title. In this context, under 948, he is described as a count of
[King] Louis ("quandam munitionem, quam Ragenoldus comes Ludowici...in loco
qui dicitur Rauciacus aedificabat").
I can't seen any compelling reason to suppose that Flodoard was writing
about two different men named Renaud, rather than giving the highlights as
seen from Rheims of a long process of taming and settling an ambitious
Viking leader, who had been baptised as Renaud.
Peter Stewart