Does this appear accurate?
Simon Lynde = Hannah Newdigate/Newgate
Elizabeth Digby = Enoch Lynde
Everard Digby = Katherine Stockbridge
Simon Digby = Anne Grey
William Digby = Rose Prestwich
John Digby = Catherine Griffin
Nicholas Griffin = Katherine Curzon
Nicholas Griffin = Margaret Pilkington
John Pilkington = Margaret de Verdun
Edmund de Verdun = Joan N.N.
John de Verdun = (1) Agnes N.N. mother of Edmund (2) Maud, widow of Ralph de Crophull
Thomas de Verdun = Margaret de Knovill
John de Verdun = Eleanor de Furnival
Thomas de Furnival = Joan le Despenser
Hugh le Despenser = Aline Basset
Philip Basset = Hawise de Louvaine
Alan Basset = Aline de Gay
I consulted a several sources regarding the Verdun line, such as AR 7 & 8 and some posts from this list.
Thanks,
Sandra Whipple
Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
I think you'll find that Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Thomas de Verdon, was
actually the sister, not the daughter, of the Thomas de Furnival (1rst Baron
Furnival)who married Joan le Despenser. See the message posted to this list
back on April 1, 1999 by Robert O'Connor under the subject heading Sir John
Pilkington and Margaret de Verdun. You'll also find that Thomas and Eleanor
de Furnival's paternal grandmother, Bertha de Ferrers (d. ca. 1266), provides
a descent from Henry I through her mother Agnes of Chester.
Finally I'll note that Frances Baldwin (Townsend Jones Williams), and her
brothers, Robert and William Baldwin share this same descent from Sir John
Digby and Catherine Curzon as follows:
Sir John Digby of Eye-Kettleby m1. Catherine Griffin
Elizabeth Digby m. Humphrey Hercy
Ellen Hercy m. Francis Mackworth
Katherine Mackworth m. John Baldwin
Francis Baldwin (probably) m. N.N.
Robert, William, and Frances Baldwin (etc.)
Jeff Duvall
Quoting s whipple <swhipple677@msn.com>:
actually the sister, not the daughter, of the Thomas de Furnival (1rst Baron
Furnival)who married Joan le Despenser. See the message posted to this list
back on April 1, 1999 by Robert O'Connor under the subject heading Sir John
Pilkington and Margaret de Verdun. You'll also find that Thomas and Eleanor
de Furnival's paternal grandmother, Bertha de Ferrers (d. ca. 1266), provides
a descent from Henry I through her mother Agnes of Chester.
Finally I'll note that Frances Baldwin (Townsend Jones Williams), and her
brothers, Robert and William Baldwin share this same descent from Sir John
Digby and Catherine Curzon as follows:
Sir John Digby of Eye-Kettleby m1. Catherine Griffin
Elizabeth Digby m. Humphrey Hercy
Ellen Hercy m. Francis Mackworth
Katherine Mackworth m. John Baldwin
Francis Baldwin (probably) m. N.N.
Robert, William, and Frances Baldwin (etc.)
Jeff Duvall
Quoting s whipple <swhipple677@msn.com>:
Does this appear accurate?
Simon Lynde = Hannah Newdigate/Newgate
Elizabeth Digby = Enoch Lynde
Everard Digby = Katherine Stockbridge
Simon Digby = Anne Grey
William Digby = Rose Prestwich
John Digby = Catherine Griffin
Nicholas Griffin = Katherine Curzon
Nicholas Griffin = Margaret Pilkington
John Pilkington = Margaret de Verdun
Edmund de Verdun = Joan N.N.
John de Verdun = (1) Agnes N.N. mother of Edmund (2) Maud, widow of Ralph de
Crophull
Thomas de Verdun = Margaret de Knovill
John de Verdun = Eleanor de Furnival
Thomas de Furnival = Joan le Despenser
Hugh le Despenser = Aline Basset
Philip Basset = Hawise de Louvaine
Alan Basset = Aline de Gay
I consulted a several sources regarding the Verdun line, such as AR 7 & 8 and
some posts from this list.
Thanks,
Sandra Whipple
-
s whipple
Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
You're right, much to my chagrin. I reread that post and can only think I must have been half asleep. I did not know that Thomas de Furnival's wife had been identified as Bertha de Ferrers. I am grateful for that information.
Thank you for taking time to respond to my message. I have made my corrections.
Sandra Whipple
----- Original Message -----
From: jeffery@iquest.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
I think you'll find that Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Thomas de Verdon, was
actually the sister, not the daughter, of the Thomas de Furnival (1rst Baron
Furnival)who married Joan le Despenser. See the message posted to this list
back on April 1, 1999 by Robert O'Connor under the subject heading Sir John
Pilkington and Margaret de Verdun. You'll also find that Thomas and Eleanor
de Furnival's paternal grandmother, Bertha de Ferrers (d. ca. 1266), provides
a descent from Henry I through her mother Agnes of Chester.
Finally I'll note that Frances Baldwin (Townsend Jones Williams), and her
brothers, Robert and William Baldwin share this same descent from Sir John
Digby and Catherine Curzon as follows:
Sir John Digby of Eye-Kettleby m1. Catherine Griffin
Elizabeth Digby m. Humphrey Hercy
Ellen Hercy m. Francis Mackworth
Katherine Mackworth m. John Baldwin
Francis Baldwin (probably) m. N.N.
Robert, William, and Frances Baldwin (etc.)
Jeff Duvall
Quoting s whipple <swhipple677@msn.com>:
Thank you for taking time to respond to my message. I have made my corrections.
Sandra Whipple
----- Original Message -----
From: jeffery@iquest.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
I think you'll find that Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Thomas de Verdon, was
actually the sister, not the daughter, of the Thomas de Furnival (1rst Baron
Furnival)who married Joan le Despenser. See the message posted to this list
back on April 1, 1999 by Robert O'Connor under the subject heading Sir John
Pilkington and Margaret de Verdun. You'll also find that Thomas and Eleanor
de Furnival's paternal grandmother, Bertha de Ferrers (d. ca. 1266), provides
a descent from Henry I through her mother Agnes of Chester.
Finally I'll note that Frances Baldwin (Townsend Jones Williams), and her
brothers, Robert and William Baldwin share this same descent from Sir John
Digby and Catherine Curzon as follows:
Sir John Digby of Eye-Kettleby m1. Catherine Griffin
Elizabeth Digby m. Humphrey Hercy
Ellen Hercy m. Francis Mackworth
Katherine Mackworth m. John Baldwin
Francis Baldwin (probably) m. N.N.
Robert, William, and Frances Baldwin (etc.)
Jeff Duvall
Quoting s whipple <swhipple677@msn.com>:
Does this appear accurate?
Simon Lynde = Hannah Newdigate/Newgate
Elizabeth Digby = Enoch Lynde
Everard Digby = Katherine Stockbridge
Simon Digby = Anne Grey
William Digby = Rose Prestwich
John Digby = Catherine Griffin
Nicholas Griffin = Katherine Curzon
Nicholas Griffin = Margaret Pilkington
John Pilkington = Margaret de Verdun
Edmund de Verdun = Joan N.N.
John de Verdun = (1) Agnes N.N. mother of Edmund (2) Maud, widow of Ralph de
Crophull
Thomas de Verdun = Margaret de Knovill
John de Verdun = Eleanor de Furnival
Thomas de Furnival = Joan le Despenser
Hugh le Despenser = Aline Basset
Philip Basset = Hawise de Louvaine
Alan Basset = Aline de Gay
I consulted a several sources regarding the Verdun line, such as AR 7 & 8 and
some posts from this list.
Thanks,
Sandra Whipple
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
I am trying to catch up with and follow this thread. So, apologies for what
may well be a baseless question, which is:
Are the de Furnivals to whom you refer also Talbots, who were lords
Furnival?
Or, am I adding up two and two for a total of five?
Rick
I am trying to catch up with and follow this thread. So, apologies for what
may well be a baseless question, which is:
Are the de Furnivals to whom you refer also Talbots, who were lords
Furnival?
Or, am I adding up two and two for a total of five?
Rick
You're right, much to my chagrin. I reread that post and can only think I
must have been half asleep. I did not know that Thomas de Furnival's wife had
been identified as Bertha de Ferrers. I am grateful for that information.
Thank you for taking time to respond to my message. I have made my
corrections.
Sandra Whipple
----- Original Message -----
From: jeffery@iquest.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
I think you'll find that Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Thomas de Verdon, was
actually the sister, not the daughter, of the Thomas de Furnival (1rst Baron
Furnival)who married Joan le Despenser. See the message posted to this list
back on April 1, 1999 by Robert O'Connor under the subject heading Sir John
Pilkington and Margaret de Verdun. You'll also find that Thomas and Eleanor
de Furnival's paternal grandmother, Bertha de Ferrers (d. ca. 1266), provides
a descent from Henry I through her mother Agnes of Chester.
Finally I'll note that Frances Baldwin (Townsend Jones Williams), and her
brothers, Robert and William Baldwin share this same descent from Sir John
Digby and Catherine Curzon as follows:
Sir John Digby of Eye-Kettleby m1. Catherine Griffin
Elizabeth Digby m. Humphrey Hercy
Ellen Hercy m. Francis Mackworth
Katherine Mackworth m. John Baldwin
Francis Baldwin (probably) m. N.N.
Robert, William, and Frances Baldwin (etc.)
Jeff Duvall
Quoting s whipple <swhipple677@msn.com>:
Does this appear accurate?
Simon Lynde = Hannah Newdigate/Newgate
Elizabeth Digby = Enoch Lynde
Everard Digby = Katherine Stockbridge
Simon Digby = Anne Grey
William Digby = Rose Prestwich
John Digby = Catherine Griffin
Nicholas Griffin = Katherine Curzon
Nicholas Griffin = Margaret Pilkington
John Pilkington = Margaret de Verdun
Edmund de Verdun = Joan N.N.
John de Verdun = (1) Agnes N.N. mother of Edmund (2) Maud, widow of Ralph de
Crophull
Thomas de Verdun = Margaret de Knovill
John de Verdun = Eleanor de Furnival
Thomas de Furnival = Joan le Despenser
Hugh le Despenser = Aline Basset
Philip Basset = Hawise de Louvaine
Alan Basset = Aline de Gay
I consulted a several sources regarding the Verdun line, such as AR 7 & 8 and
some posts from this list.
Thanks,
Sandra Whipple
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Aline de Gai descent to Simon Lynde, etc.
Dear Rick ~
You've asked a good question.
As you suspected, the Talbots who were Lords Furnival were descended
from the earlier Furnival family who were Lords Furnival. The
connection comes through Maud Neville, wife of John Talbot, K.G., 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury.
You can find Maud Neville's ancestry traced in Jim Weber's database at
the following link:
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... style=TEXT
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Rick Eaton wrote:
You've asked a good question.
As you suspected, the Talbots who were Lords Furnival were descended
from the earlier Furnival family who were Lords Furnival. The
connection comes through Maud Neville, wife of John Talbot, K.G., 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury.
You can find Maud Neville's ancestry traced in Jim Weber's database at
the following link:
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb. ... style=TEXT
Good luck in your sleuthing!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Rick Eaton wrote:
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
I am trying to catch up with and follow this thread. So, apologies for what
may well be a baseless question, which is:
Are the de Furnivals to whom you refer also Talbots, who were lords
Furnival?
Or, am I adding up two and two for a total of five?
Rick
-
Ginny Wagner
RHIWALLON SIONED SAIS TUDUR GORONWY POWYS
From The Haskins Society Journal, Vol. 7, 1995:
Who Was Rhys Sais? by Frederick C. Suppe
Tudur Trefor
(born c. 900)
l
l
Lluddica
l
l
Llywarch Gam Rhiwallon
(born c. 970) l
l l
l l
Ednyfed = Sioned
l
l
RHYS SAIS = Efa
(d. 1070) l
l
__________________l_____________________________
l l l
Tudur Elidir Iddon
(fl. 1078-86) (fl. 1081)
l
l
Goronwy
l
l
Sir Roger de Powys
lord of Whittington
(fl. 1157-73)
l
l
Sir Meurig Llwyd
of Whittington
(d. 1200)
l_____________________________
l l
Wronnoc Wenneon
(?Goronwy) (?Gwenwynwyn)
Fig. 16 Simplified genealogy of Rhys Sais
Footnoted: Kathleen Hughes, 'The Welsh latin chronicles: Annales Cambriae
and related texts', in Celtic Britain in the Early Middle Ages: Studies in
Scottish and Welsh Sources, ed. David Dumville (Woodbridge, 1980) 67-85.
In Two Studies in North French Prosopography K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Journal of
Medieval History 20 (1994) 3-37:
Page 15: "This area was held in the later eleventh century partly by Ralph
I fitz Main II of Fougeres from Robert II of Mortain, and partly by Geoffrey
de Gorron, son of Rivallon I of Dol, from Geoffrey and Walter of Mayenne."
What strikes me, a total novice at all this, is the similarity in the names
RHIWALLON and RIVALLON as well as GORONWY and GORRON. My first question is
whether or not anyone knows if these are the same family. And second, there
is no footnote to the statement that Geoffrey de Gorron is son of Rivallon I
of Dol so how can I learn where that bit of information came from?
The CTG, Vol. V pps 184-5 has a charter from William de Gorram in 1128
wherein he gives a chapel, plot of ground for the cells of the monks, an
adjoining orchard; and tithe of the men of his castle, market, mills, ovens
and fish to Mont St. Micheal near Avranches. This charter is signed by
Rivallonus Culiebos among others. A footnote on page 186 notes that on June
23, 1163, a monk of la Fustaie preserved a list of the crusaders from Maine
in the Priory of Nogent le Retrou, printed by Menage, Hist. de Sable, p.
180, edit. 1683: "Gilo de Garania [Gorania?] et Johannes frater ejus."
Which buttresses my belief that the Gorham family is connected to the Futaye
and, perhaps to verify the Rivallon connection, a signator of the charter
was of the name Rivallonus.
The Fustaie or Fustaye connection is that it is the name of a rivlet that
runs near the castle of the de Gorram family. A Ralph Fustaye was not only
sainted regionally, he was one of the early master builders, according to
Vorgeschichte und Fruhgeschichte der Bauhutten which says:
"1095 Saint-Jouin-de-Marnes (Deux-Sevres): Radulphus de Flageio oder de
Fusteia, Benediktinermonch, beginnt den Wiederaufbau der Abteikirche; er
stirbt am 16. August 1129."
Which I've translated (with no knowledge of German/Danish) as St. John of
[??] Ralph of de la Futaye or of Fusteia, Benedictine Monk, began the
rebuild of the Abbey Church; he finished on August 16, 1129.
All this has led me to believe that Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham's father or
brother was Ralph de la Futaye whose saint day is/was 8/16 at St. Sulpice at
Rennes, probably given sainthood in gratitude for finishing the 34 year
project!
Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can offer as to the
Rivallon/Rhywallon connection for the Gorham family or clearing up any
misunderstandings I've come to, due to my ignorance in these matters.
Ginny Wagner
Who Was Rhys Sais? by Frederick C. Suppe
Tudur Trefor
(born c. 900)
l
l
Lluddica
l
l
Llywarch Gam Rhiwallon
(born c. 970) l
l l
l l
Ednyfed = Sioned
l
l
RHYS SAIS = Efa
(d. 1070) l
l
__________________l_____________________________
l l l
Tudur Elidir Iddon
(fl. 1078-86) (fl. 1081)
l
l
Goronwy
l
l
Sir Roger de Powys
lord of Whittington
(fl. 1157-73)
l
l
Sir Meurig Llwyd
of Whittington
(d. 1200)
l_____________________________
l l
Wronnoc Wenneon
(?Goronwy) (?Gwenwynwyn)
Fig. 16 Simplified genealogy of Rhys Sais
Footnoted: Kathleen Hughes, 'The Welsh latin chronicles: Annales Cambriae
and related texts', in Celtic Britain in the Early Middle Ages: Studies in
Scottish and Welsh Sources, ed. David Dumville (Woodbridge, 1980) 67-85.
In Two Studies in North French Prosopography K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Journal of
Medieval History 20 (1994) 3-37:
Page 15: "This area was held in the later eleventh century partly by Ralph
I fitz Main II of Fougeres from Robert II of Mortain, and partly by Geoffrey
de Gorron, son of Rivallon I of Dol, from Geoffrey and Walter of Mayenne."
What strikes me, a total novice at all this, is the similarity in the names
RHIWALLON and RIVALLON as well as GORONWY and GORRON. My first question is
whether or not anyone knows if these are the same family. And second, there
is no footnote to the statement that Geoffrey de Gorron is son of Rivallon I
of Dol so how can I learn where that bit of information came from?
The CTG, Vol. V pps 184-5 has a charter from William de Gorram in 1128
wherein he gives a chapel, plot of ground for the cells of the monks, an
adjoining orchard; and tithe of the men of his castle, market, mills, ovens
and fish to Mont St. Micheal near Avranches. This charter is signed by
Rivallonus Culiebos among others. A footnote on page 186 notes that on June
23, 1163, a monk of la Fustaie preserved a list of the crusaders from Maine
in the Priory of Nogent le Retrou, printed by Menage, Hist. de Sable, p.
180, edit. 1683: "Gilo de Garania [Gorania?] et Johannes frater ejus."
Which buttresses my belief that the Gorham family is connected to the Futaye
and, perhaps to verify the Rivallon connection, a signator of the charter
was of the name Rivallonus.
The Fustaie or Fustaye connection is that it is the name of a rivlet that
runs near the castle of the de Gorram family. A Ralph Fustaye was not only
sainted regionally, he was one of the early master builders, according to
Vorgeschichte und Fruhgeschichte der Bauhutten which says:
"1095 Saint-Jouin-de-Marnes (Deux-Sevres): Radulphus de Flageio oder de
Fusteia, Benediktinermonch, beginnt den Wiederaufbau der Abteikirche; er
stirbt am 16. August 1129."
Which I've translated (with no knowledge of German/Danish) as St. John of
[??] Ralph of de la Futaye or of Fusteia, Benedictine Monk, began the
rebuild of the Abbey Church; he finished on August 16, 1129.
All this has led me to believe that Abbot Geoffrey de Gorham's father or
brother was Ralph de la Futaye whose saint day is/was 8/16 at St. Sulpice at
Rennes, probably given sainthood in gratitude for finishing the 34 year
project!
Thanks in advance for any insight anyone can offer as to the
Rivallon/Rhywallon connection for the Gorham family or clearing up any
misunderstandings I've come to, due to my ignorance in these matters.
Ginny Wagner