wife of Guaram curopalates

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Paul K Davis

wife of Guaram curopalates

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 17 mai 2005 06:21:02

In the Georgian Chronicles, the forty-fourth chapter begins:

"Forty-fourth, King Arc`il, son of King Step`anoz and brother of King Mir,
a descendant of Xosro"
"Arc`il summoned the erist`avis of K`art`li and gave them his nieces: the
first he gave to his father's nephew, son of Guaram curopalates, who held
Klarjet`i and Javaxet`i;"

This would seem to me to indicate that Guaram's wife was a sister of
Stepanoz. What do others think? If so, then Guaram's unnamed son married
his cousin once removed. Does anyone have a clue if this was acceptible in
eighth century Caucasian Georgia?

The marriages in question would have taken place shortly after 786,
according to the translator's chronology.

I am taking this from page 247 of "The Georgian Chronicles: the Original
Georgian Texts", translated by Robert W. Thomson, in "Rewriting Caucasian
History", Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1996, which has the call number
DK675.2K37R48 in the Stanford U. library.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Don Stone

Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Legg inn av Don Stone » 17 mai 2005 17:08:45

Paul K Davis wrote:
In the Georgian Chronicles, the forty-fourth chapter begins:

"Forty-fourth, King Arc`il, son of King Step`anoz and brother of King Mir,
a descendant of Xosro"
"Arc`il summoned the erist`avis of K`art`li and gave them his nieces: the
first he gave to his father's nephew, son of Guaram curopalates, who held
Klarjet`i and Javaxet`i;"

This would seem to me to indicate that Guaram's wife was a sister of
Stepanoz. What do others think? If so, then Guaram's unnamed son married
his cousin once removed. Does anyone have a clue if this was acceptible in
eighth century Caucasian Georgia?

The marriages in question would have taken place shortly after 786,
according to the translator's chronology.

I am taking this from page 247 of "The Georgian Chronicles: the Original
Georgian Texts", translated by Robert W. Thomson, in "Rewriting Caucasian
History", Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1996, which has the call number
DK675.2K37R48 in the Stanford U. library.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Toumanoff's _Les Dynasties de la Caucasie Chrétienne de l'Antiquité jusqu'au
XIXe Siècle_ (Rome, 1990), pp. 382-3, specifies that Gou(a)ram IV / Gourgen
II (who was the son of Gouaram III Le Jeune, curopalate) married (1) c. 748
a nameless daughter of Mihr I (the first daughter of Mihr listed by
Toumanoff); Toumanoff gives Gouaram IV a nameless sister (called only
princess) who married Artchil I, brother of Mihr I. So according to
Toumanoff, Gouaram IV was a brother-in-law of Artchil I; however, this would
not make him a nephew of Artchil's father, Etienne II, but rather a
daughter-in-law's brother. Perhaps the word used in the chronicle for
nephew could also have this meaning?? (Incidentally, Toumanoff doesn't
supply a wife or any siblings for Etienne II.)

-- Don Stone

Gjest

Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2005 22:21:02

Dear Paul,
As Ar` cil , son of Stepan`oz gave a neice to Guaram
curopalates, then it appears that Guaram wed a granddaughter of Stepan`oz unless
Ar`cil`s mother were married and had children by another man and They were only
Ar`cil`s neices of the half blood.Unlikely if They are mention with no such
distinction in the Georgian chronicle in question.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Paul K Davis

Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 19 mai 2005 07:21:01

Thanks, Don.

In fact, in the Georgian Chronicles, the marriage of Archil to a daughter
of Guaram III is mentioned, and appears to take place, sometime after the
marriage of Guaram IV to a niece of Archil. One would therefore not expect
it to explain the reference to Guaram as Archil's father's nephew.

There was a much more distant relationship between Archil and Guaram. They
were both descendants of the notable Vachtang Gorgasol, Archil from Dachi,
son of Vachtang by his Sasanid wife, and Guaram from Leo, son of Vachtang
by his Byzantine wife. This relationship was well known, but two distant
to have been morphed into a first cousin relationship, in my estimation.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Don Stone <don.stone@verizon.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/17/2005 9:14:56 AM
Subject: Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Paul K Davis wrote:
In the Georgian Chronicles, the forty-fourth chapter begins:

"Forty-fourth, King Arc`il, son of King Step`anoz and brother of King
Mir,
a descendant of Xosro"
"Arc`il summoned the erist`avis of K`art`li and gave them his nieces:
the
first he gave to his father's nephew, son of Guaram curopalates, who
held
Klarjet`i and Javaxet`i;"

This would seem to me to indicate that Guaram's wife was a sister of
Stepanoz. What do others think? If so, then Guaram's unnamed son
married
his cousin once removed. Does anyone have a clue if this was
acceptible in
eighth century Caucasian Georgia?

The marriages in question would have taken place shortly after 786,
according to the translator's chronology.

I am taking this from page 247 of "The Georgian Chronicles: the Original
Georgian Texts", translated by Robert W. Thomson, in "Rewriting
Caucasian
History", Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1996, which has the call number
DK675.2K37R48 in the Stanford U. library.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Toumanoff's _Les Dynasties de la Caucasie Chrétienne de l'Antiquité
jusqu'au
XIXe Siècle_ (Rome, 1990), pp. 382-3, specifies that Gou(a)ram IV /
Gourgen
II (who was the son of Gouaram III Le Jeune, curopalate) married (1) c.
748
a nameless daughter of Mihr I (the first daughter of Mihr listed by
Toumanoff); Toumanoff gives Gouaram IV a nameless sister (called only
princess) who married Artchil I, brother of Mihr I. So according to
Toumanoff, Gouaram IV was a brother-in-law of Artchil I; however, this
would
not make him a nephew of Artchil's father, Etienne II, but rather a
daughter-in-law's brother. Perhaps the word used in the chronicle for
nephew could also have this meaning?? (Incidentally, Toumanoff doesn't
supply a wife or any siblings for Etienne II.)

-- Don Stone

Paul K Davis

Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 19 mai 2005 07:41:01

Thanks, James.

I should, perhaps, have given more context. The Georgian Chronicles are
quite clear that the nieces of Archil being referred to were the daughters
of his elder brother Mihr.

The fuller context is that Stepanos had two sons, Mihr the elder, and
Archil the younger. At Stepanos' death Mihr became the ruler. He was
later wounded in battle, and knew he would die soon. He had seven
daughters, all apparently unmarried, and no sons. He told his brother
Archil, who was unmarried at the time, that he was the heir, and Mirh asked
Archil to marry all the daughters to local noblemen, so that they would
live well. Guaram,'s son got the first daughter, I would assume either
because he was the wealthiest noble bachelor, or most closely related.
Later Archil married a daughter of Guaram himself.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/17/2005 1:18:13 PM
Subject: Re: wife of Guaram curopalates

Dear Paul,
As Ar` cil , son of Stepan`oz gave a neice to Guaram
curopalates, then it appears that Guaram wed a granddaughter of Stepan`oz
unless
Ar`cil`s mother were married and had children by another man and They
were only
Ar`cil`s neices of the half blood.Unlikely if They are mention with no
such
distinction in the Georgian chronicle in question.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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