Blythman of Newlathes: corrections, and a Plantagenet descen

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Blythman of Newlathes: corrections, and a Plantagenet descen

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2005 16:10:02

Monday, 16 May, 2005



Hello All,

The pedigree of Blythman of Newlathes in the Visitation of 1665
was evidently based on documents and information provided by Jasper
Blythman of Newlathes, co. Yorks. (b. 1641/42), and gives in part
the following (shown without correction or addition) [1]:


William Blythman. = ... daughter and heire of John Burton of ...
_______________I____________________________
I I
2. Will’m Blytheman, ... da. of Hugh = 1. Jasper = ....
marr. ... daughter of Lacy of Burlay, Blytheman. I ....
... Tankerd of 1 wife. I 2d wife.
Burrough-brigg in co. I
Ebor. ___________________________________________________I__________
I I I I
I I I I
3. William = Elizabeth, 2. John Blythman, 1. Jasper Blythman, I
Blythman, I daughter of marr. ... daugh. marr. ... daughter I
died in ao I John Stanhope Burdet of Denby Thos. Wentworth of I
1659. I of Mellwood in co. Ebor. Woodhouse in co. I
I Parke in com. obijt sine prole. Ebor. Esq’r. I
I Linc. Knt. obijt sine prole. I
I I
___________I____________________________________ __I
I I I I
1. Fulljambe 3. Jasper = Catherine, 4. Michaell. 1. Mary,
Blythman, marr. Blythman of I daugh. of 1. Mary, wife wife of
Mary, da. and Newlathes I Richard of Mathew Stephen
heire of Tho. in co. York I Mountney of Biggs of Yorke Skypwith
Boswell of aet. 23 ann I Rotheram 2. Hesther, of .. in
Warmesworth in 16 Sept. I in co. Ebor. 3. Eliz. Hartford
com. Ebor. Esqr 1665. I Esqr. 5. Elizabeth, sh.
and died without I wife unto 2. Eliza-
issue in ao 1658. I Philip Lutton beth.
2. Will’m Blythman, I of Yedingham
marr. Jane, daughter I in co. Ebor.
of Tho. Butler, citizen I 4. Rachell.
of London. I 6. Rachell.
I 7. Everilda.
I
Elizabeth, aet. 1 anni 16 Sept. 1665


There are at least two problems with this pedigree:

1. There is either a missing generation, or William Blythman (d.
in 1659) is misplaced and is most likely the son of either
John Blythman (baptised in 1557) or his brother Jasper
(baptised in Feb 1558/9). From these dates, John was
evidently the elder son, Jasper the 2nd.

2. As important, and possibly more interesting, John and Jasper
(and likely their other siblings as well) were the issue of
their father’s first wife, not the 2nd unnamed wife as shown
in the pedigree:

A. The first wife was Elizabeth Lacy, daughter of Hugh
Lacy, Esq. of Brierley, co. Yorks. by his wife Agnes
Savile. The record of the baptism for John Blythman
evidences that his mother was Elizabeth Lacy, as her
brother, sister-in-law (wife of John) and father were
present at the baptism:

' Johes. fili's Gesperi Blythemane de Midgley xiiij
Noue'bre 1557.
Mr. John Lacy, Mr. Hughe Lacy et ux Mr. Johi's Lacy,
prini ‘ [2]

It is somewhat unlikely that Hugh Lacy, Esq. and his
family would have been intimately involved in the
baptism of a former son-in-law's child by a 2nd
wife.

B. Elizabeth Lacy was living, and still wife to Jasper
Blythman in 1570, when Hugh Lacy wrote his will
referring to her as ‘ Elizabeth, my daughter, now
wife of Jasper Blithman ‘ [3].

If all the issue of Jasper Blythman (fl. 1557-1570) was in fact
by his wife Elizabeth Lacy, then all his descendants (incl. those
surnamed Biggs, Blythman, Lutton and Skipwith) would be descendants
as well of Hugh Lacy and his wife Agnes Savile, whose respective
descents from Edward I of England and Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count
of Anjou have been discussed recently on SGM [4].

Should anyone have further information concerning the above,
including possible or known descents from Jasper Blythman and
Elizabeth Lacy, please advise.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] William Dugdale, Esq., The Visitation of the County of Yorke,
begun in 1665 and finished 1666, Publications of the Surtees
Society, Vol. XXXVI (Durham: George Andrews & Co., 1859),
p. 179.

[2] E. W. Crossley, The Parish Registers of Halifax, Co. York
(privately published for the Yorkshire Parish Register Society,
1910), I:108.

[3] Will of Hugh Lacye of Midgeley, dated 20 September 1570,
transcribed by Ruth Keys Clark:
http://members.tripod.com/~Caryl_Williams/HLacye.html

“Hugh Lacye of Brearley, Esq, within the township of Midgley
“ To be buried in the Parish Church of Halifax.
To the Vicar of said Church, for my mortuary, according to the
statute in that case provided.
“ I give to my son and heir, John Lacye, two great iron chimneys and
all my best apparel, together with all my armour, harness and
weapons ( except my best steel coat, or coat of plate and my best
steel cap, or ‘scolle’), which I will that my son Gilbert Lacye
shall have to his own use.
“ To Margaret, my daughter, now wife of William Farrer; to Alice my
daughter, late wife of John Houldswoth of Astray; to Agnes, my
daughter, now wife of Christopher Deighton; to Elizabeth, my
daughter, now wife of Jasper Blithman, to Ellen, my daughter, now
wife of John Deane, of the Deanhouse, five marks each to be paid
to them by by executor hereafteer named, upon that 50 lb of
currency money of England which lately heretofore I did lend unto
our Sovereign Ladye the Queen’s Majesty that now is, Elizabeth,
within one month; next after that, the same sum of 50 lb. Shall
be paid to my said executor or assigns.
“ And in case that it chance my said executor be not paid the said
sum of 50 lb. By the Queen’s Majesty, that now is, her heirs or
successors, then my mind is that my said executors shall not be
charged to pay any of my said daughters the said several sums of
five marks, or any part thereof, for amend, as I have given to
every one of them at the time of their several marriages a
sufficient portion of my goods for their preferment in marriage,
and have general acquitances of them, or their said husbands,
declaring them to be satisfied for their child’s portion of my
said goods.
“ The rest of the 50 lb. And also Her Majesty’s Privie Seale for
the same, with residue of all my goods to my youngest son, Gilbert,
my sole executor. I make William Farrer of the Ewoods, and John
Deane of Deanhouse, my son-in-law, Overseers.
Witnesses John Watson, Willm. Hanson, Wllm. Sladin, John
Hanson.
Proved July 31, 1573 by Executors named. '

[4] Re: Agnes Savile and her Thornhill and Eland ancestry, see
Leo van de Pas’ fine website at http://www.genealogics.org
See SGM threads <Savile of Thornhill and Copley: a Plantagenet
descent> [Sept. 2004] and <EARLY SAVILLE FAMILY - LINKED TO
BUTLER OF SKELBROOK> [Jan. 2005].
See also SGM threads <Symmes of Barnsley, ancestors of
William Farrar> [Dec. 2004 - Jan. 2005], <Plantagenet Descent:
Edward I to Symmes of Barnsley> [Dec. 2004 to present] and
<A Plantagenet Descent: FitzWilliam of Woodhall to William
Farrar> [Dec. 2004].


* John P. Ravilious

Nathaniel Taylor

Fitzwilliam - Deincourt (was Re: Blythman of Newlathes: corr

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 16 mai 2005 16:10:03

In article <ae.726a59d1.2fba02b7@aol.com>, Therav3@aol.com wrote:


<...>

If all the issue of Jasper Blythman (fl. 1557-1570) was in fact
by his wife Elizabeth Lacy, then all his descendants (incl. those
surnamed Biggs, Blythman, Lutton and Skipwith) would be descendants
as well of Hugh Lacy and his wife Agnes Savile, whose respective
descents from Edward I of England and Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count
of Anjou have been discussed recently on SGM [4].

<...>


[4] Re: Agnes Savile and her Thornhill and Eland ancestry, see
Leo van de Pas’ fine website at http://www.genealogics.org
See SGM threads <Savile of Thornhill and Copley: a Plantagenet
descent> [Sept. 2004] and <EARLY SAVILLE FAMILY - LINKED TO
BUTLER OF SKELBROOK> [Jan. 2005].
See also SGM threads <Symmes of Barnsley, ancestors of
William Farrar> [Dec. 2004 - Jan. 2005], <Plantagenet Descent:
Edward I to Symmes of Barnsley> [Dec. 2004 to present] and
A Plantagenet Descent: FitzWilliam of Woodhall to William
Farrar> [Dec. 2004].

John,

I'm interested in the Savile side, as this ancestry is shared by William
Wentworth of New Hampshire (MichaelAnne Guido pointed this connection
out last Fall). Your statement here refers back to a descent you posted
via FitzWilliam back on 11 Sep 2004, and a discussion around that time,
concerning the placement of Joan Fitzwilliam, wife of Sir Brian de
Thornhill, as dau. of Sir William Fitzwilliam and Isabel Deincourt
(rather than by another wife--let alone a generation later, as she seems
to appear in Richardson's _Plantagenet Ancestry_, p. 331). MichaelAnne
Guido posted the text of Isabel (Deincourt) FitzWilliam's will.

Now, does anyone have an opinion whether the inclusion in Isabel's will
of a legacy to a Joan de Thornhill, and her appointment of Sir Brian de
Thornhill as an executor, supports conclusively (or not) her maternity
of Joan, wife of Sir Brian de Thornhill? In other words, would such a
lady have made her *stepdaughter's* husband an executor, and left a
legacy to a stepdaughter (or daughter of a stepdaughter if the bequest
is to a daughter of Sir Brian)?

On the other hand, wasn't there an argument against Isabel Deincourt
Fitzwilliam leaving any surviving issue past a certain year (I haven't
read all the posts on this fully)?

Accepting Isabel Deincourt Fitzwilliam as mother of Joan de Thornhill
would provide Thornhill and Savile descendants with a descent from Henry
I via Gloucester / Chester, which would be of interest to William
Wentworth descendants since his descent from King John, as shown in
RD600 is chronologically impossible and is based on another unresolved,
dubious placement of another FitzWilliam daughter (with a Sothill
marriage) into the shadowy FitzWilliam pedigree.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Blythman of Newlathes: corrections, and a Plantagenet de

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2005 01:34:29

Hello All,

While certain of the issues discussed in the prior post
remain to be resolved, evidence has been found that proves
that Jasper Blithman ('the younger') was a grandson of Hugh
Lacy, Esq. of Brearley. The following extract was made by J.
Horsfall Turner from his will:

' 1632. Jasper Blythman, of Eland Hall, Esq., gave his
brother Wm. the best horse, armour, apparel. To sister
Mary wife of Stephen Skipwith L70. The goods brought
to Eland Hall, plate, &c., to cozen Wm. Savill of Copley,
now of Halifax, Esq. To governors of Halifax Grammar
School L10; Halifax Workhouse L10. To poore at my
funerall L5. To Gilbert Deane's four children by
Elizabeth my late neice [sic] L200, to be paid by my
loving cozen John Farrar, Esq., and James Murgatroyd,
gent. To Edward Hanson, Netherwoodhouse, the write
hereof, L2. Judith my wife the rest. Cozen Sir John
Ramsden of Longley, knt., supervisor. Proved 1633.' [1]


William Blithman, and his sister Mary Blithman (wife of
Stephen Skipwith) are both identified in the Blythman pedigree
cited in the prior post. William Savile, Esq. of Copley was
related to the Lacy and Blithman families through Hugh Lacy of
Brearley's mother Agnes Lacy (dau. of Nicholas Savile, of New
Hall in Eland).

More to the point, John Farrer, Esq. of Ewood in Midgley
["my loving cozen" in the will above] was 1st cousin 1x
removed to Jasper Blithman - in 1632 he was the eldest
surviving son of John Farrer, Esq. of Croxton, Lincs. [fl.
1541-1628] and Cecily Kelke, and his paternal grandparents
were William Farrar of Ewood in Midgley [d. 1573 or before]
and Margaret Lacy, aunt of Jasper Blithman.

~ A note to other Farrar descendants, John Farrer, Esq.
was the next elder brother to William Farrar, the
emigrant to Virginia.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] J. Horsall Turner, The History of Brighouse, Rastrick, and
Hipperholme [Bingley, Yorkshire: Thomas Harrison and Sons,
1893], p. 235. The extract immediately prior (1619) is
from the will of Jasper's brother, John Blithman of New
Laithe, Esq. He had made Jasper the supervisor of his
will.


* John P. Ravilious

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