Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

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CED

Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 14 mai 2005 21:05:48

To the Newsgroup:
The following is forwarded for the consideration of the members of the
list. It merits careful consideration.
CED



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 1999/10/26
Subject: Re: Medieval First Names
To:

Hi Marshall:

There is a list of early English medieval names in an Appendix at the
back of one of the volumes of Complete Peerage. The list is
adequare
but far from complete. Regarding the name, Elizabeth, I can tell you
that the names Elizabeth and Isabel were interchangeable in the
medieval period. But, I have never seen the name "Liess," either by
itself or used in place of Elizabeth. I'm also not aware that "Joes"
was the medieval name for John. Perhaps your source was thinking of
Johannes which is one of the Latin forms for John.

A more common problem with handling medieval names is leaving women's
names in the Latin form, whereas men's names are almost always
modernized and Anglicized. The woman's name Emma was originally Em,
Emm, or Emme. The name Ela is found as Ele. The name Ida is found
as
Ide (or even Ede). Matilda was actually Maud (and other cognant
forms). And, so forth. As best I can tell, women's names did not
bear
a final "a" in the vernacular in medieval times. Cecily for example
is
found in the vernacular as Cecily/Cicely in medieval times,
occasionally as Cecile, but never as Cecilia. Regardless, I find
most
editors translate medieval English documents from the Latin into
English and they leave the final "a" on the women's name as if that
was
the original vernacular form. This would probably not be the case if
documents in the vernacular were not so rare in this period and if
Latin forms of women's names had not become popular in later periods.

Other peculiarities exist, such as the slow transition of Alianor (or
Alianore) to Eleanor which took place about 1450, and the transition
of
Reynold to Reginald which took place about the same time. I like
Reynold and I use that form in my records before 1450. The woman's
name Katherine seems to have been spelled with an initial "K' for
centuries and about 1500, you start seeing the form "Catherine"
appear
in the records. And, there is always my favorite Latin form,
Sedzilia,
which was the name of the mother of Aline de Gay, wife of Alan
Basset.
It took me a long time before I reazlized it was just another form of
Cecily.

People are still unsure of how to translate some Latin form, one
examply being the man's name, Bogo. If it is translated at all, it
appears as Bew, or even Bevis. For simplicitity sake, I use Bew.
You'd be surprised at how many competent medieval historians stumble
over that one. Another problem child is the Latin form of the man's
name Otho. That name was actually Otes in the vernacular. Modern
historians usually go with Otho, not realizing that is incorrect.
As
such, one still sees Bogo de Knoville and Bogo de Clare in modern
books, but that sort of problem is rare these days.

One last item: By and large, nicknames were not employed. At least
they are not mentioned in the records. The only nickname I find
prior
to 1600 with any regularity is Harry for Henry. Other that that one
exception, people seemed to use their exact given names in the
records.

I trust this answers your question. Best of luck in your research.
All for now. Douglas Richardson

Gjest

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mai 2005 05:48:55

Maybe if you gave your name your post would merit credit or are you
hiding. Until then your credit is shot.
Can't wait for your response.

Mike

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 16 mai 2005 00:14:31

Dear Mike,

My name, having many varieties, is of no conseqence; and my credit
(presuming that you mean "believability") is not a consequence of my
name.

In this particular case, my bringing to the attention of the list a
posting of Mr. Douglas Richardson in which he misuses the term
"vernacular" is in no way dependent upon my credibililty. The history
of my posting on this subject (if you chose to review it ) shows that
nothing I posted requires or suggests that anybody take my word. I
have posted the definition of vernacular which Mr. Richardson submitted
and have followed with posts in which he used that term inconsistently
with that definition. What in my questioning relies on my credibility?

I would suggest, on the contrary, that Mr. Richardson may have a
credibilty problem. Apparently he publishes books on genealogy. One
would expect that, if a man writes books in the English language, that
man would be expected to use that language properly.

It is a question of either competence or carelessness, if not both. If
he cannot handle such a simple term as vernacular, how can he be
trusted to use other terms properly? Or is carelessness in his use of
terms symptomatic of his care in reseach and writing ?

This particular posting is of particular interest because Mr.
Richardson's use of the term "vernacular" cannot be justified, when
that use is compared with his definition, with which, by the way, I
shall conclude this post: In response to my question as to Mr.
Richardson's definition of one of his frequently used terms, he
submitted the following definition of vernacular:
"1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather
than a literary, cultured, or foreign language."
Mike, possibly you can come to Mr. Richardson's assistance by comparing
his use of the term with the defintion which he submitted.

CED

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 16 mai 2005 20:33:47

Whatever...

Steve Barnhoorn

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av Steve Barnhoorn » 16 mai 2005 20:33:53

Whatever...

Allied

succinct response?

Legg inn av Allied » 17 mai 2005 00:41:02

ah hahah good grief this just about says it all eh...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Barnhoorn" <sbarnhoorn@mail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"


Whatever...


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