English and Spanish Intermarriage
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
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AC
English and Spanish Intermarriage
I have a question about any links between the Spanish and English thrones,
specifically those producing heirs (not interested in Mary I). What are the
more notable unions?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
specifically those producing heirs (not interested in Mary I). What are the
more notable unions?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
AC wrote:
Well . . .
Richard I married Berengaria, daughter of Sancho V Garces, but this
marriage produced no progeny.
Alfonso VIII of Castile married Richard's sister, Eleanor, daughter of
Henry II of England, producing the future king Enrique (named for his
maternal grandfather) and several daughters, of whom Berenguela was the
eventual heiress and mother of Fernando III of Castile and Leon, while
other daughters married the kings of France, Portugal, and Aragon.
Henry II of England married Eleanor of Provence, a scion of the royal
house of Aragon, producing all of his legitimate children, including
successor Edward I.
Eleanor, daughter of Fernando III married Edward I of England, and was
mother of Edward II and several other of Edward I's children.
Edmund of Woodstock and John of Gaunt, sons of Edward III married
Isabella and Constance, daughters of Pedro the Cruel, King of Castile,
following whose deposition, John claimed Castile in right of his wife.
He married a daiughter, Philippa, to John, King of Portugal in order to
gain peninsular support. After initial success, this military campaign
fizzled, and he married Catherine, daughter of Constance, to her cousin
Enrique III, thus uniting the claims. She was mother of Juan II and
grandmother of Isabella II (of Ferdinand and Isabella notoriety).
Isabella was mother of the children of Edmund of Woodstock, and
ancestress of the Yorkists.
Finally, as you mentioned, Mary, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella of
SPain married in sequence Arthur and Henry VIII, producing by the latter
Queen Mary, who was married to Philip II of Spain and Portugal, but the
marriage was never consumated.
Those are all that I remember.
taf
I have a question about any links between the Spanish and English thrones,
specifically those producing heirs (not interested in Mary I). What are the
more notable unions?
Well . . .
Richard I married Berengaria, daughter of Sancho V Garces, but this
marriage produced no progeny.
Alfonso VIII of Castile married Richard's sister, Eleanor, daughter of
Henry II of England, producing the future king Enrique (named for his
maternal grandfather) and several daughters, of whom Berenguela was the
eventual heiress and mother of Fernando III of Castile and Leon, while
other daughters married the kings of France, Portugal, and Aragon.
Henry II of England married Eleanor of Provence, a scion of the royal
house of Aragon, producing all of his legitimate children, including
successor Edward I.
Eleanor, daughter of Fernando III married Edward I of England, and was
mother of Edward II and several other of Edward I's children.
Edmund of Woodstock and John of Gaunt, sons of Edward III married
Isabella and Constance, daughters of Pedro the Cruel, King of Castile,
following whose deposition, John claimed Castile in right of his wife.
He married a daiughter, Philippa, to John, King of Portugal in order to
gain peninsular support. After initial success, this military campaign
fizzled, and he married Catherine, daughter of Constance, to her cousin
Enrique III, thus uniting the claims. She was mother of Juan II and
grandmother of Isabella II (of Ferdinand and Isabella notoriety).
Isabella was mother of the children of Edmund of Woodstock, and
ancestress of the Yorkists.
Finally, as you mentioned, Mary, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella of
SPain married in sequence Arthur and Henry VIII, producing by the latter
Queen Mary, who was married to Philip II of Spain and Portugal, but the
marriage was never consumated.
Those are all that I remember.
taf
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AC
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
On Tue, 10 May 2005 13:09:20 -0600,
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
<snip>
That's more than enough. Thank you very much!
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
<snip>
Those are all that I remember.
That's more than enough. Thank you very much!
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
I'm a little confused: was it not _Catharine_, daughter of Ferdinand
and Isabella, who married Arthur and then Henry (VIII) Tudor?
What is the evidence that Catharine and Henry's daughter, Mary I, never
consummated her union with Philip of Spain? There were two or more
phantom/hysterical pregnancies IIRC which likely wouldn't have been
taken seriously had it been known/obvious that the marriage wasn't
consummated, no?
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
and Isabella, who married Arthur and then Henry (VIII) Tudor?
What is the evidence that Catharine and Henry's daughter, Mary I, never
consummated her union with Philip of Spain? There were two or more
phantom/hysterical pregnancies IIRC which likely wouldn't have been
taken seriously had it been known/obvious that the marriage wasn't
consummated, no?
Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
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Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
Yes. I was already thinking of the daughter and typed her name by
accident. It is Catherine, of course.
In addition to the family history of such things (her mother had at
least one such episode as well - in her case denial that an early
miscarriage had taken place, right up through the ninth month when it
should have been obvious to all), two other factors probably came into
play. First, a naivety in the area of aviary and apiary principles
probably existed (again, that certainly appears to have been the case
with her mother), while the unusual and unfortunate circumstances of
Mary's childhood left her psychologically damaged. Given this,
consummation need not have been necessary for Mary to think she was
pregnant if she really wanted to be, while I would not have wanted to be
the person demonstrating my traitorous and heretical nature by telling
her that she wasn't.
taf
I'm a little confused: was it not _Catharine_, daughter of Ferdinand
and Isabella, who married Arthur and then Henry (VIII) Tudor?
Yes. I was already thinking of the daughter and typed her name by
accident. It is Catherine, of course.
What is the evidence that Catharine and Henry's daughter, Mary I, never
consummated her union with Philip of Spain? There were two or more
phantom/hysterical pregnancies IIRC which likely wouldn't have been
taken seriously had it been known/obvious that the marriage wasn't
consummated, no?
In addition to the family history of such things (her mother had at
least one such episode as well - in her case denial that an early
miscarriage had taken place, right up through the ninth month when it
should have been obvious to all), two other factors probably came into
play. First, a naivety in the area of aviary and apiary principles
probably existed (again, that certainly appears to have been the case
with her mother), while the unusual and unfortunate circumstances of
Mary's childhood left her psychologically damaged. Given this,
consummation need not have been necessary for Mary to think she was
pregnant if she really wanted to be, while I would not have wanted to be
the person demonstrating my traitorous and heretical nature by telling
her that she wasn't.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Having said this, I went back and checked some additional sources. The
one which suggested the absence of consummation is almost certainly
wrong, and I retract it.
taf
Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
What is the evidence that Catharine and Henry's daughter, Mary I, never
consummated her union with Philip of Spain? There were two or more
phantom/hysterical pregnancies IIRC which likely wouldn't have been
taken seriously had it been known/obvious that the marriage wasn't
consummated, no?
Given this,
consummation need not have been necessary for Mary to think she was
pregnant if she really wanted to be, while I would not have wanted to be
the person demonstrating my traitorous and heretical nature by telling
her that she wasn't.
Having said this, I went back and checked some additional sources. The
one which suggested the absence of consummation is almost certainly
wrong, and I retract it.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:d5skoc$70f$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
I wonder, does anyone know of an instance before the 19th century of a
married Englishwoman who definitely didn't know about the birds & bees? This
certainly happened to a good many unfortunates later on, as diaries and
letters attest, but it doesn't seem entirely plausible in the Tudor era,
much less in a daughter of Henry VIII.
Peter Stewart
news:d5skoc$70f$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Katheryn_Swynford wrote:
What is the evidence that Catharine and Henry's daughter, Mary I, never
consummated her union with Philip of Spain? There were two or more
phantom/hysterical pregnancies IIRC which likely wouldn't have been
taken seriously had it been known/obvious that the marriage wasn't
consummated, no?
Given this, consummation need not have been necessary for Mary to think
she was pregnant if she really wanted to be, while I would not have
wanted to be the person demonstrating my traitorous and heretical nature
by telling her that she wasn't.
Having said this, I went back and checked some additional sources. The
one which suggested the absence of consummation is almost certainly wrong,
and I retract it.
I wonder, does anyone know of an instance before the 19th century of a
married Englishwoman who definitely didn't know about the birds & bees? This
certainly happened to a good many unfortunates later on, as diaries and
letters attest, but it doesn't seem entirely plausible in the Tudor era,
much less in a daughter of Henry VIII.
Peter Stewart
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Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
Peter Stewart wrote:
Not an Englishwoman, but as I hinted, in the recent biography of HVIII's
six wives the author makes the argument that the circumstances
surrounding the upbringing of Catherine of Aragon (and particularly the
way her mother had found religion in later years) left her particularly
unprepared for gender interactions of all types at the English court.
We still have unresolved conflicting statements by the two primaries as
to whether her first marriage was ever consummated.
taf
I wonder, does anyone know of an instance before the 19th century of a
married Englishwoman who definitely didn't know about the birds & bees? This
certainly happened to a good many unfortunates later on, as diaries and
letters attest, but it doesn't seem entirely plausible in the Tudor era,
much less in a daughter of Henry VIII.
Not an Englishwoman, but as I hinted, in the recent biography of HVIII's
six wives the author makes the argument that the circumstances
surrounding the upbringing of Catherine of Aragon (and particularly the
way her mother had found religion in later years) left her particularly
unprepared for gender interactions of all types at the English court.
We still have unresolved conflicting statements by the two primaries as
to whether her first marriage was ever consummated.
taf
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
AC wrote:
Actually, I left out one that nearly came to pass. William the
Conqueror is said to have arranged a marriage between one of his
daughters and king 'Alfonso of Galicia', apparently Alfonso VI of Leon.
It is said that she was so mortified by the thought of marrying such a
barbarian that she successfuly willed herself to die before the marriage
was ever celebrated (Alfonso went on to be one of the champion serial
monogomists of the middle ages, with at least 5 successive wives, plus
at least two mistresses on the side).
taf
On Tue, 10 May 2005 13:09:20 -0600,
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
snip
Those are all that I remember.
That's more than enough. Thank you very much!
Actually, I left out one that nearly came to pass. William the
Conqueror is said to have arranged a marriage between one of his
daughters and king 'Alfonso of Galicia', apparently Alfonso VI of Leon.
It is said that she was so mortified by the thought of marrying such a
barbarian that she successfuly willed herself to die before the marriage
was ever celebrated (Alfonso went on to be one of the champion serial
monogomists of the middle ages, with at least 5 successive wives, plus
at least two mistresses on the side).
taf
-
AC
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
On Wed, 11 May 2005 09:53:40 -0600,
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Interesting. The reason I'm asking all of this is because of the claim that
the Windsors allegedly have Mohammed as an ancestor, via the Ummyad's of
Spain. I know that this is considered common wisdom by some, but I'm trying
to assess the factuality of the claim.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2005 13:09:20 -0600,
Todd A. Farmerie <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
snip
Those are all that I remember.
That's more than enough. Thank you very much!
Actually, I left out one that nearly came to pass. William the
Conqueror is said to have arranged a marriage between one of his
daughters and king 'Alfonso of Galicia', apparently Alfonso VI of Leon.
It is said that she was so mortified by the thought of marrying such a
barbarian that she successfuly willed herself to die before the marriage
was ever celebrated (Alfonso went on to be one of the champion serial
monogomists of the middle ages, with at least 5 successive wives, plus
at least two mistresses on the side).
Interesting. The reason I'm asking all of this is because of the claim that
the Windsors allegedly have Mohammed as an ancestor, via the Ummyad's of
Spain. I know that this is considered common wisdom by some, but I'm trying
to assess the factuality of the claim.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
AC wrote:
In that case, your question left out a whole range of possibilities -
the connection need not have involved a direct England/Spain marriage.
For example, the marriages of Edward I (second) and Edward II to French
princesses brought in Spanish blood. Likewise, there are descents
through the gentry from Walter Blount and his wife Sancha de Ayala, of
distant Spanish royal descent, again not evindent in looking just at the
royals.
That being said, the more critical question is not how the blood got to
England, but how it got from muslim to christian. What is the purported
marriage by which an Ummayad descendant came to have christian progeny.
Several of these have been examined here, but most are extremely
problematic. Most such claims focus on the descent from Zayda, baptized
Isabella, mistress of Alfonso VI (the barbarian William the Conqueror's
daughter so little liked the prospects of marrying). This is
problematic for three reasons. First, her parentage is not known.
Second, her daughters were daughters of Queen Isabella, and it is far
from certain that Queen Isabella and mistress Zayda/Isabella were the
same person. Third, the purported descent from her traces through a
hypothetical individual (a genealogical space-filler invented to fill a
chronological gap) since shown to be fictitious. There is potential for
a muslim descent here, but it would require her parentage to be
illuminated (unlikely ever to happen) and her identity with Queen
Isabella to be clearly demonstrated (likewise unlikely), as well as
tracing through her other daughter (from whom there are documented
descent to the Windsors).
Other claims to Ummayad descent that have been made derived from the
Maya family, the Lara family, the family of William of Gellone, the
Counts of Ribagorza, and the Kings of Navarre, but these rely on
inaccurate traditions (in both of the first two cases, the surviving
traditional pedigree can be proven wrong, but "fixes" have been
proposed, while the third militates against the surviving evidence),
misinterpretation of solid data (the Ribagorza claim can be proven
flawed), or onomastics that are, at best, ambiguous (Maya, Navarre).
All of these have been discussed at one time or another. There are
other possibilities less well studied, but these are also less likely to
have served as the basis for the "common wisdom" that you mentioned.
taf
Interesting. The reason I'm asking all of this is because of the claim that
the Windsors allegedly have Mohammed as an ancestor, via the Ummyad's of
Spain. I know that this is considered common wisdom by some, but I'm trying
to assess the factuality of the claim.
In that case, your question left out a whole range of possibilities -
the connection need not have involved a direct England/Spain marriage.
For example, the marriages of Edward I (second) and Edward II to French
princesses brought in Spanish blood. Likewise, there are descents
through the gentry from Walter Blount and his wife Sancha de Ayala, of
distant Spanish royal descent, again not evindent in looking just at the
royals.
That being said, the more critical question is not how the blood got to
England, but how it got from muslim to christian. What is the purported
marriage by which an Ummayad descendant came to have christian progeny.
Several of these have been examined here, but most are extremely
problematic. Most such claims focus on the descent from Zayda, baptized
Isabella, mistress of Alfonso VI (the barbarian William the Conqueror's
daughter so little liked the prospects of marrying). This is
problematic for three reasons. First, her parentage is not known.
Second, her daughters were daughters of Queen Isabella, and it is far
from certain that Queen Isabella and mistress Zayda/Isabella were the
same person. Third, the purported descent from her traces through a
hypothetical individual (a genealogical space-filler invented to fill a
chronological gap) since shown to be fictitious. There is potential for
a muslim descent here, but it would require her parentage to be
illuminated (unlikely ever to happen) and her identity with Queen
Isabella to be clearly demonstrated (likewise unlikely), as well as
tracing through her other daughter (from whom there are documented
descent to the Windsors).
Other claims to Ummayad descent that have been made derived from the
Maya family, the Lara family, the family of William of Gellone, the
Counts of Ribagorza, and the Kings of Navarre, but these rely on
inaccurate traditions (in both of the first two cases, the surviving
traditional pedigree can be proven wrong, but "fixes" have been
proposed, while the third militates against the surviving evidence),
misinterpretation of solid data (the Ribagorza claim can be proven
flawed), or onomastics that are, at best, ambiguous (Maya, Navarre).
All of these have been discussed at one time or another. There are
other possibilities less well studied, but these are also less likely to
have served as the basis for the "common wisdom" that you mentioned.
taf
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F.Tavares de Almeida
Re: English and Spanish Intermarriage
Interesting. The reason I'm asking all of this is because of the claim that
the Windsors allegedly have Mohammed as an ancestor, via the Ummyad's of
Spain. I know that this is considered common wisdom by some, but I'm trying
to assess the factuality of the claim.
Through the Ummayads of Spain you get Muhammads'family - his
great-grandfather - but not himself.
However if the link muslims/christian will be established as I hope
with Chico Doria's next book there is a possible connection through
the Idrissids, sherifs of Morocco. A much more interesting Shia
connection
Francisco