Tuesday, 10 May, 2005
Dear Adrian, Doug, Chris, Rosie, Leo, Ian, et al.,
The ancestry of the infamous Sir Richard Empson and his wife Jane is
little known, but a piece of evidence has come to my notice which should
provide direction to resolving at least part of this puzzle.
The following record is given in Testamenta Eboracensia:
‘ 1507-8, Jan. 22. Licence from the archbishop of Canterbury
for Sir William Pierrepoint, knt., and Joan, widow of Henry
Sothill, late dioc. Lincoln, to marry. On Jan. 20th, a
dispensation was given to them at London by Hadrian, cardinal-
priest of St. Grisogonus, they being related in 3rd and 4th
degrees. Reg. Bainbridge, 5 a. ‘ [1]
The above entry provides a date for the licence for Joan Empson,
widow of Henry Sothill or Soothill, to marry her 2nd husband. I had
not seen this date cited previously, so this appears to provide that
further detail for those interested in/descended from this couple.
More importantly, this record also evidences that there was
a near relationship between Joan Empson and Sir William Pierrepont.
The relationship is poorly defined at best: without an examination
of the original document or a more complete transcript, it is
possible that a relationship of affinity is intended (i.e., that
husbands #1 (Henry Sothill) and #2 (Sir William Pierrepont) were
themselves related by blood).
Despite this uncertainty, I would like to suggest a possible area
for further study, and what may well be the relationship that existed
between Joan Empson and Sir William Pierrepont. Sir William's
maternal grandfather was John Burdon 'of Nottingham', most likely of
the same family as Sir Nicholas Burdon, 1st husband of Millicent
Beckering or Bekeryng [2]. Millicent Beckering married 2ndly Sir
John Markham, as his 2nd wife, by whom she had Sir John Markham, later
Lord Chief Justice (1461-1469) under Edward IV. Sir John Markham had
issue by his wife Margaret Leke: the possibility that this issue may
have included a daughter Jane, wife of the attorney Sir Richard Empson
presents itself, and would solve the relationship as follows (note
conjectured relationships denoted ......) :
<2> <1>
1) Sir Nicholas = Millicent = 2) Sir John = Elizabeth
Burdon (d. 1403) I Beckering I Markham I Cressy
I _____ I ______________I
_____________________I__ I I_______
I I I I
NN Burdon Elizabeth = Robert Sir John Markham
: Markham Chief Justice (d. 1479)
: :
John Burdon :
I Sir Richard = Jane [Markham ?]
I Empson I
Margaret = Sir Francis (exe. 1410) I
I Pierrepont _________I_____________________
I I I I I I
I I Thomas John Elizabeth I
I I ___I
2) Sir William Pierrepont = Joan = 1) Henry I
I Empson I Sothill Anne
I I
V V
The above chart would provide the 3rd & 4th degree relationship
stipulated in the licence and dispensation of 20 Jan 1507/08.
The descendants of Sir Richard and Jane (___) Empson are legion,
including Prince Charles, Sarah (Duchess of York), and many SGM
list members, to name but a very few. Should anyone have additional
information concerning the Markham, Burdon or other families that
would serve to confirm or disprove the relationship conjectured
above, that would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES:
[1] Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry
at York (Durham: Andrews & Co., 1865), III:365.
[2] See Rosie Bevan's post to SGM entitled <Cressy and Markham Problems>,
13 Oct 2002, which cites S. J. Payling, Political Society in Lancastrian
England (OUP, 1991).
Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Empson
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Emp
Nice work, John. Great post! You're quite correct, the Empson family
has many living descendants.
I happen to descend from an Empson family in England myself through my
immigrant ancestor, Benjamin Child, of Massachusetts. Benjamin's
grandmother was Ellen, daughter of Thomas Empson, of St. Margaret's,
Westminster, Middlesex. Thomas Empson's connection (if any) to Sir
Richard Empson has never been established. I've always suspected they
were closely related.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
ther...@aol.com wrote:
has many living descendants.
I happen to descend from an Empson family in England myself through my
immigrant ancestor, Benjamin Child, of Massachusetts. Benjamin's
grandmother was Ellen, daughter of Thomas Empson, of St. Margaret's,
Westminster, Middlesex. Thomas Empson's connection (if any) to Sir
Richard Empson has never been established. I've always suspected they
were closely related.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
ther...@aol.com wrote:
Tuesday, 10 May, 2005
Dear Adrian, Doug, Chris, Rosie, Leo, Ian, et al.,
The ancestry of the infamous Sir Richard Empson and his wife
Jane is
little known, but a piece of evidence has come to my notice which
should
provide direction to resolving at least part of this puzzle.
The following record is given in Testamenta Eboracensia:
' 1507-8, Jan. 22. Licence from the archbishop of Canterbury
for Sir William Pierrepoint, knt., and Joan, widow of Henry
Sothill, late dioc. Lincoln, to marry. On Jan. 20th, a
dispensation was given to them at London by Hadrian, cardinal-
priest of St. Grisogonus, they being related in 3rd and 4th
degrees. Reg. Bainbridge, 5 a. ' [1]
The above entry provides a date for the licence for Joan Empson,
widow of Henry Sothill or Soothill, to marry her 2nd husband. I had
not seen this date cited previously, so this appears to provide that
further detail for those interested in/descended from this couple.
More importantly, this record also evidences that there was
a near relationship between Joan Empson and Sir William Pierrepont.
The relationship is poorly defined at best: without an examination
of the original document or a more complete transcript, it is
possible that a relationship of affinity is intended (i.e., that
husbands #1 (Henry Sothill) and #2 (Sir William Pierrepont) were
themselves related by blood).
Despite this uncertainty, I would like to suggest a possible
area
for further study, and what may well be the relationship that
existed
between Joan Empson and Sir William Pierrepont. Sir William's
maternal grandfather was John Burdon 'of Nottingham', most likely of
the same family as Sir Nicholas Burdon, 1st husband of Millicent
Beckering or Bekeryng [2]. Millicent Beckering married 2ndly Sir
John Markham, as his 2nd wife, by whom she had Sir John Markham,
later
Lord Chief Justice (1461-1469) under Edward IV. Sir John Markham
had
issue by his wife Margaret Leke: the possibility that this issue may
have included a daughter Jane, wife of the attorney Sir Richard
Empson
presents itself, and would solve the relationship as follows (note
conjectured relationships denoted ......) :
2> <1
1) Sir Nicholas = Millicent = 2) Sir John =
Elizabeth
Burdon (d. 1403) I Beckering I Markham I Cressy
I _____ I ______________I
_____________________I__ I I_______
I I I I
NN Burdon Elizabeth = Robert Sir John Markham
: Markham Chief Justice (d.
1479)
: :
John Burdon :
I Sir Richard = Jane [Markham ?]
I Empson I
Margaret = Sir Francis (exe. 1410) I
I Pierrepont _________I_____________________
I I I I I I
I I Thomas John Elizabeth I
I I ___I
2) Sir William Pierrepont = Joan = 1) Henry I
I Empson I Sothill Anne
I I
V V
The above chart would provide the 3rd & 4th degree relationship
stipulated in the licence and dispensation of 20 Jan 1507/08.
The descendants of Sir Richard and Jane (___) Empson are legion,
including Prince Charles, Sarah (Duchess of York), and many SGM
list members, to name but a very few. Should anyone have additional
information concerning the Markham, Burdon or other families that
would serve to confirm or disprove the relationship conjectured
above, that would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES:
[1] Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry
at York (Durham: Andrews & Co., 1865), III:365.
[2] See Rosie Bevan's post to SGM entitled <Cressy and Markham
Problems>,
13 Oct 2002, which cites S. J. Payling, Political Society in
Lancastrian
England (OUP, 1991).
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Emp
----- Original Message -----
From: <therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:49 AM
Subject: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Empson (d.
1510)
<snip>
I understand Sir Richard Empson had two sons and four daughters. I know only
the name of son Thomas and daughters Jane and Mary.
As far as Gen-Med is concerned, I only know that you and Louise Staley are
descendants. Gateway Ancestors I can find are Jane Lowe, Afra Harleston,
Nicholas Sewall, Robert Peyton, John Harleston, Elizabeth Harleston and
Robert Monckton.
In the royal family descendants are Queen Elizabeth II, Lady Diana Spencer,
Sarah Ferguson and Camilla.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
From: <therav3@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:49 AM
Subject: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Empson (d.
1510)
<snip>
The descendants of Sir Richard and Jane (___) Empson are legion,
including Prince Charles, Sarah (Duchess of York), and many SGM
list members, to name but a very few. Should anyone have additional
information concerning the Markham, Burdon or other families that
would serve to confirm or disprove the relationship conjectured
above, that would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
Dear John,
I understand Sir Richard Empson had two sons and four daughters. I know only
the name of son Thomas and daughters Jane and Mary.
As far as Gen-Med is concerned, I only know that you and Louise Staley are
descendants. Gateway Ancestors I can find are Jane Lowe, Afra Harleston,
Nicholas Sewall, Robert Peyton, John Harleston, Elizabeth Harleston and
Robert Monckton.
In the royal family descendants are Queen Elizabeth II, Lady Diana Spencer,
Sarah Ferguson and Camilla.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Robert O'Connor
Re: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Emp
<therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C723975285E191-428-33A30@FWM-R45.sysops.aol.com...
snip
John
On a different tack, the reference to Henry Sothill or Soothill is of
interest to me.
Specifically it would appear from Lincolnshire Pedigrees, p 461 that the
wife of Sir John Harington of Exton (d 1524) (g grandfather of John, 1st
Baron Harington, of Exton) was one "Alice, d. of Henry Southhill".
Are the Henry Sothill and the Henry Southill, father-in-law of Sir John
Harington, one and the same person?
Thank you
Robert O'Connor
news:8C723975285E191-428-33A30@FWM-R45.sysops.aol.com...
Tuesday, 10 May, 2005
Dear Adrian, Doug, Chris, Rosie, Leo, Ian, et al.,
The ancestry of the infamous Sir Richard Empson and his wife Jane is
little known, but a piece of evidence has come to my notice which should
provide direction to resolving at least part of this puzzle.
The following record is given in Testamenta Eboracensia:
' 1507-8, Jan. 22. Licence from the archbishop of Canterbury
for Sir William Pierrepoint, knt., and Joan, widow of Henry
Sothill, late dioc. Lincoln, to marry. On Jan. 20th, a
dispensation was given to them at London by Hadrian, cardinal-
priest of St. Grisogonus, they being related in 3rd and 4th
degrees. Reg. Bainbridge, 5 a. ' [1]
The above entry provides a date for the licence for Joan Empson,
widow of Henry Sothill or Soothill, to marry her 2nd husband.
snip
John
On a different tack, the reference to Henry Sothill or Soothill is of
interest to me.
Specifically it would appear from Lincolnshire Pedigrees, p 461 that the
wife of Sir John Harington of Exton (d 1524) (g grandfather of John, 1st
Baron Harington, of Exton) was one "Alice, d. of Henry Southhill".
Are the Henry Sothill and the Henry Southill, father-in-law of Sir John
Harington, one and the same person?
Thank you
Robert O'Connor
-
Gjest
Re: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Emp
Dear Robert,
I fairly certain that the two Henrys are not the same
person. Henry Sothill or Sotehill, Esq., of Stoke Faston,
Leicestershire (1st husband of Joan Empson) was Attorney-General
to Henry VII (Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st ed., p. 88). His
daughters were
(1) Elizabeth (d. 19 May 1575), wife of Sir William Drury
of Hawstead, Suffolk
(2) Joan (twin of Elizabeth), wife of John Constable, knt.
(3) Christiana, wife of William Babthorpe of Osgodby
(parentage noted in HSP 16, pedigree of Sowthyll ; also
pedigree of Girlington of Hackford, and note, p. 141)
Another possibly link could be through the Soothills of
Everingham. I have the following on Henry Soothill, younger
brother of John Everingham of Everingham, Drax, West and Middle
Rasen, and Westborough - they were evidently 2nd cousins of the
above Henry Soothill. See if there's any mesh with what I have
below (Nicholas Soothill, mentioned below, was a brother of John
and Henry).
Will advise of anything else I find......
Cheers,
John
FILE - Deed leading to the uses of a Fine - ref.
A2A, Sheffield Archives: Spencer Stanhope Muniments
SpSt/4/11/82/41 - date: 10 Jun 1478
[from Scope and Content] Between Henry Sotehill of
Ryston in Holderness, Gent, and Elizabeth his wife, of the one
part, and John Frechvyll, Gent, Isabell his wife, John Barnby,
Gent, and Agnes his wife, of the other part; re the lands of the
late Anthony Nutyll in Ryston, Sutton, Tunstall and Skypseeburgh,
to be settled on Henry and Elizabeth for their lives, then to
Agnes and Isabell, daughters and heirs apparent of Elizabeth.'
Pre-nuptial settlement dated 20 Apr 1495
' Henry Sotehill, brother to John Solehill of Everyngham, esq.,
and Elizabeth, his wife, late wife of Laurence Sekilbrice, sister
and heir to Sir Anthony Nuttall, knight, of the first part, and
Robert Barnby and John Barnby, his son and heir, of the second
part.
[from Scope and Content] The parties of the first part
further agree to enfeoffe William Copley of Doncaster, John Villers
of Fullaby, Nicholas Sotehill of Everygham, Alexander Drax of
Woodhall, Henry Rokley of Ledes and William Symmes of Wirksburgh,
in and of lands to the yearly value of £10, part of the above
mentioned lands; so that the feoffees shall reserve rents and
profits of the lands to specified uses.' - A2A, Sheffield Archives:
Spencer Stanhope Muniments [SpSt/1 - SpSt/172], SpSt/74/1
Robert O'Connor wrote:
I fairly certain that the two Henrys are not the same
person. Henry Sothill or Sotehill, Esq., of Stoke Faston,
Leicestershire (1st husband of Joan Empson) was Attorney-General
to Henry VII (Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st ed., p. 88). His
daughters were
(1) Elizabeth (d. 19 May 1575), wife of Sir William Drury
of Hawstead, Suffolk
(2) Joan (twin of Elizabeth), wife of John Constable, knt.
(3) Christiana, wife of William Babthorpe of Osgodby
(parentage noted in HSP 16, pedigree of Sowthyll ; also
pedigree of Girlington of Hackford, and note, p. 141)
Another possibly link could be through the Soothills of
Everingham. I have the following on Henry Soothill, younger
brother of John Everingham of Everingham, Drax, West and Middle
Rasen, and Westborough - they were evidently 2nd cousins of the
above Henry Soothill. See if there's any mesh with what I have
below (Nicholas Soothill, mentioned below, was a brother of John
and Henry).
Will advise of anything else I find......
Cheers,
John
FILE - Deed leading to the uses of a Fine - ref.
A2A, Sheffield Archives: Spencer Stanhope Muniments
SpSt/4/11/82/41 - date: 10 Jun 1478
[from Scope and Content] Between Henry Sotehill of
Ryston in Holderness, Gent, and Elizabeth his wife, of the one
part, and John Frechvyll, Gent, Isabell his wife, John Barnby,
Gent, and Agnes his wife, of the other part; re the lands of the
late Anthony Nutyll in Ryston, Sutton, Tunstall and Skypseeburgh,
to be settled on Henry and Elizabeth for their lives, then to
Agnes and Isabell, daughters and heirs apparent of Elizabeth.'
Pre-nuptial settlement dated 20 Apr 1495
' Henry Sotehill, brother to John Solehill of Everyngham, esq.,
and Elizabeth, his wife, late wife of Laurence Sekilbrice, sister
and heir to Sir Anthony Nuttall, knight, of the first part, and
Robert Barnby and John Barnby, his son and heir, of the second
part.
[from Scope and Content] The parties of the first part
further agree to enfeoffe William Copley of Doncaster, John Villers
of Fullaby, Nicholas Sotehill of Everygham, Alexander Drax of
Woodhall, Henry Rokley of Ledes and William Symmes of Wirksburgh,
in and of lands to the yearly value of £10, part of the above
mentioned lands; so that the feoffees shall reserve rents and
profits of the lands to specified uses.' - A2A, Sheffield Archives:
Spencer Stanhope Muniments [SpSt/1 - SpSt/172], SpSt/74/1
Robert O'Connor wrote:
therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8C723975285E191-428-33A30@FWM-R45.sysops.aol.com...
-
Gjest
Re: Possible identification of Jane, wife of Sir Richard Emp
Dear John,
In your earlier post You indicated that Henry Soothill Esq of
Stock Faston who m Joan Empson was a 2nd cousin of Sir John Soothill, Knt
..feudal Lord of Everingham who married Agnes Ingelby and of his brothers Henry
who married Elizabeth (?Nuttel) and Nicholas Soothill of Everingham. If so that
made John Soothill Esq of Stock Faston who married Elizabeth Plumpton the own
cousin of Sir John Soothill of Middle Rasen who married Joan Poucher of
Drax. RPA p 669 " Sothill " shows John of Stock Faston as a son of Henry
Soothill Esq of Stock Faston, King`s Attorney General by his wife Anne Boyville.
Who were the parents of Sir John Soothill of Middle Faston and who was the
father of He and Henry? Thank You in advance
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
In your earlier post You indicated that Henry Soothill Esq of
Stock Faston who m Joan Empson was a 2nd cousin of Sir John Soothill, Knt
..feudal Lord of Everingham who married Agnes Ingelby and of his brothers Henry
who married Elizabeth (?Nuttel) and Nicholas Soothill of Everingham. If so that
made John Soothill Esq of Stock Faston who married Elizabeth Plumpton the own
cousin of Sir John Soothill of Middle Rasen who married Joan Poucher of
Drax. RPA p 669 " Sothill " shows John of Stock Faston as a son of Henry
Soothill Esq of Stock Faston, King`s Attorney General by his wife Anne Boyville.
Who were the parents of Sir John Soothill of Middle Faston and who was the
father of He and Henry? Thank You in advance
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA