Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Stewart Baldwin
Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
Since I last posted on the subject a few months ago, there are a few
micellaneous loose ends which are now a little bit clearer to me than
they were before. Those who were not following the earlier
discussions may need to go to the archives for the comments below to
make full sense.
1. Bérenger "of Neustria's" supposed Breton connection.
For someone as obscure as he is, Bérenger "of Neustria" has been the
subject of a huge amount of speculation, genealogical and otherwise.
(Even the title of "marquis of Neustria" sometimes given to him by
modern scholars is not based on direct evidence.) Merlet, in his
account of the ancestry of Conan I of Rennes, gives this Bérenger the
title of count of Rennes, something which, along with the onomastic
argument, has been used as evidence that Bérenger "of Neustria" and
Juhel Bérenger of Rennes were related. This title for Bérenger turns
out to be based on a seventeenth century source. Arthur de la
Borderie, in his article "Examen chronologique des chartes de
Cartulaire de Redon antérieures au XIe siècle", Bibliothèque de
l'École des Chartes 25 (1864), 259-282, 393-434, at page 408, citing
Pierre Le Baud's (17th century) Historie de Bretagne, p. 127, gives
the following quote:
"S'asslemberent partie desdits Bretons sous le comte Bérenger de
Rennes,... et firent bataille près le fleuve Coynon, conmtre une
multitude desdits Normands, qu'ils occirent. Et Alain le Grand, avec
l'autre partie qu'il cuellit, assailit une autre compagnie desdits
Normands au terriroire nantois, assez près du fleuve de Loire, dont il
occit la plupart et les autres s'enfuirent."
Now, it is true that Le Baud had access to sources now lost, but this
seems too flimsy to me. Even if it is the case that Le Baud got this
from a source now lost, it is quite possible that it is a confused
account of encounters of Alain le Grand's grandson Alain Barbetorte
and a certain (distinct) count Bérenger with the Normans (which are
well documented in contemporary records).
Since there seems to be no solid evidence for a Breton connection of
Bérenger "of Neustria", there seems to be no reason why this Bérenger
was the origin of Juhel Bérenger's double name.
2. Juhel Bérenger as count Judhaël.
In a previous posting, I cited Merlet as mentioning that Juhel
Bérenger appears twice in the cartulary of Landevenec, to which I do
not have access. However, at the time I overlooked that these two
charters are transcribed in Morice's Preuves (vol. 1, cols. 345-6).
Of these two charters, the first is undated, but was before the death
of Alain Barbetorte in 952, and the second is dated about 950 by
Morice (reason not stated). Both are signed by a count Judhaël, and
both have a considerable overlap in the witness list of an Angevin
charter of 958, which was signed by many Breton leaders, including
count Bérenger. The mid-eleventh century "Vita S. Gildæ Abbatis
Ruyensis" states that "Eo tempore erat Comes in Redonensi civitate
Juchael, qui et Berengarius dicebatur" [RHF 10, 377], so if the two
Landevenec charters are genuine (I have no basis on which to judge
this) and the Judhaël of these charters is Juhel Bérenger, then we
would have five contemporary appearances of Juhel Bérenger, in which
he appeared with a Breton name in the two Breton sources, and with the
Frankish name Bérenger in the three non-Breton sources, fitting quite
well with the statement that he was Juhel, also called Bérenger.
In particular, this information would appear to seriously undermine
the scenario of Guillotel (already weak, in my opinion) that Juhel
Bérenger should be divided into an earlier Bérenger (-ca. 958) and a
later Juhel (-ca. 970), and support the opinion of Merlet that the
references to Bérenger and Juhel from 944 to ca. 970 all refer to the
same count of Rennes, Juhel Bérenger (or Juhel a.k.a. Bérenger).
3. Conan's four sons at Angers.
"Gesta Consulum Andegavensium" [see RHF 10:255], in a legendary
account of the struggle between the counts of Anjou and Rennes,
reports a battle near Angers in which Fulk Nerra supposedly killed two
sons of Conan and captured two others (the latter including Conan's
eldest son Alain). These sons have often been included in secondary
sources about Conan's family. Since I can find no other mention of
these alleged sons, and since "Gesta Consulum Andegavensium" is a late
source which is not even a reliable for Angevin History, I see no
reason to accept its account regarding the genealogy of the Breton
house. Thus, I am inclined to regard these four alleged sons of Conan
as mythical.
4. One more loose end.
One early genealogy of the counts of Rennes which was dismissed by
Merlet came from René Poupardin's article "Généalogies Angevines du
XIe siècle" in "Mélanges d'Archéologie et d'Histoire de l'Ecole
française de Rome" 20 (1900), 199-208, at p. 206. Although I have no
reason to doubt Merlet's conclusion, I have not seen the above
article. Can anybody provide a full quote of the Breton material
which appears in that article?
Stewart Baldwin
micellaneous loose ends which are now a little bit clearer to me than
they were before. Those who were not following the earlier
discussions may need to go to the archives for the comments below to
make full sense.
1. Bérenger "of Neustria's" supposed Breton connection.
For someone as obscure as he is, Bérenger "of Neustria" has been the
subject of a huge amount of speculation, genealogical and otherwise.
(Even the title of "marquis of Neustria" sometimes given to him by
modern scholars is not based on direct evidence.) Merlet, in his
account of the ancestry of Conan I of Rennes, gives this Bérenger the
title of count of Rennes, something which, along with the onomastic
argument, has been used as evidence that Bérenger "of Neustria" and
Juhel Bérenger of Rennes were related. This title for Bérenger turns
out to be based on a seventeenth century source. Arthur de la
Borderie, in his article "Examen chronologique des chartes de
Cartulaire de Redon antérieures au XIe siècle", Bibliothèque de
l'École des Chartes 25 (1864), 259-282, 393-434, at page 408, citing
Pierre Le Baud's (17th century) Historie de Bretagne, p. 127, gives
the following quote:
"S'asslemberent partie desdits Bretons sous le comte Bérenger de
Rennes,... et firent bataille près le fleuve Coynon, conmtre une
multitude desdits Normands, qu'ils occirent. Et Alain le Grand, avec
l'autre partie qu'il cuellit, assailit une autre compagnie desdits
Normands au terriroire nantois, assez près du fleuve de Loire, dont il
occit la plupart et les autres s'enfuirent."
Now, it is true that Le Baud had access to sources now lost, but this
seems too flimsy to me. Even if it is the case that Le Baud got this
from a source now lost, it is quite possible that it is a confused
account of encounters of Alain le Grand's grandson Alain Barbetorte
and a certain (distinct) count Bérenger with the Normans (which are
well documented in contemporary records).
Since there seems to be no solid evidence for a Breton connection of
Bérenger "of Neustria", there seems to be no reason why this Bérenger
was the origin of Juhel Bérenger's double name.
2. Juhel Bérenger as count Judhaël.
In a previous posting, I cited Merlet as mentioning that Juhel
Bérenger appears twice in the cartulary of Landevenec, to which I do
not have access. However, at the time I overlooked that these two
charters are transcribed in Morice's Preuves (vol. 1, cols. 345-6).
Of these two charters, the first is undated, but was before the death
of Alain Barbetorte in 952, and the second is dated about 950 by
Morice (reason not stated). Both are signed by a count Judhaël, and
both have a considerable overlap in the witness list of an Angevin
charter of 958, which was signed by many Breton leaders, including
count Bérenger. The mid-eleventh century "Vita S. Gildæ Abbatis
Ruyensis" states that "Eo tempore erat Comes in Redonensi civitate
Juchael, qui et Berengarius dicebatur" [RHF 10, 377], so if the two
Landevenec charters are genuine (I have no basis on which to judge
this) and the Judhaël of these charters is Juhel Bérenger, then we
would have five contemporary appearances of Juhel Bérenger, in which
he appeared with a Breton name in the two Breton sources, and with the
Frankish name Bérenger in the three non-Breton sources, fitting quite
well with the statement that he was Juhel, also called Bérenger.
In particular, this information would appear to seriously undermine
the scenario of Guillotel (already weak, in my opinion) that Juhel
Bérenger should be divided into an earlier Bérenger (-ca. 958) and a
later Juhel (-ca. 970), and support the opinion of Merlet that the
references to Bérenger and Juhel from 944 to ca. 970 all refer to the
same count of Rennes, Juhel Bérenger (or Juhel a.k.a. Bérenger).
3. Conan's four sons at Angers.
"Gesta Consulum Andegavensium" [see RHF 10:255], in a legendary
account of the struggle between the counts of Anjou and Rennes,
reports a battle near Angers in which Fulk Nerra supposedly killed two
sons of Conan and captured two others (the latter including Conan's
eldest son Alain). These sons have often been included in secondary
sources about Conan's family. Since I can find no other mention of
these alleged sons, and since "Gesta Consulum Andegavensium" is a late
source which is not even a reliable for Angevin History, I see no
reason to accept its account regarding the genealogy of the Breton
house. Thus, I am inclined to regard these four alleged sons of Conan
as mythical.
4. One more loose end.
One early genealogy of the counts of Rennes which was dismissed by
Merlet came from René Poupardin's article "Généalogies Angevines du
XIe siècle" in "Mélanges d'Archéologie et d'Histoire de l'Ecole
française de Rome" 20 (1900), 199-208, at p. 206. Although I have no
reason to doubt Merlet's conclusion, I have not seen the above
article. Can anybody provide a full quote of the Breton material
which appears in that article?
Stewart Baldwin
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:f79s71htjn0splqs8m37impi1cj344lu34@4ax.com...
<chomp>
I'm afraid my computer skills are not up to this task, and this post will
turn into a dog's breakfast - if so I can send it to you in a Word document
or better yet a photocopy of the article itself.
The Breton genealogy is in a table that wold require very elaborate
description in order to be followed in detail, or else reproduction. I will
try for a compromise between these.
There are 29 individuals with a few extra names for wives & mothers.
At the top are named, with no connecting lines:
Rex Nomenoius Salomon
Herrispoius Ridoredh
On the line below these names appears to the right:
ingenuus
Pascuithen
and on the same line, centred:
bastardus
Alanus major
In the following generation four of Alan's offspring are tabulated:
Wareth et filias duas Pascuithen
The descendants of Pascuithen aligned beneath his name are:
Beringerius
|
Conanus
|
Goffridus
|
Alanus
and in the following generation:
Conanus bastardus
Ex Berta fila Odonis et Gaufridus
comitis soror Tebaudi comitis
That is the end of the line from Pascuithen. Under the two unnamed daughters
of Alan are the following:
Madudoius habuit unam De altera orti sunt
de qua Rochisii
Alanus Barbatorta
The sons of Alan Barbetorte are:
Hoel et Guareth
then the sons ascribed to "Guareth" are:
Judicail Hoel Drogo
The three siblings in the next generation are below these names but not
connected to any of them:
bastardi de conjuge Milesinde
Rovallon Budich Judith
Under the name of Budich, but not connected to him, appear:
ex coniuge
Mathias Mathatias
Under Judith's name, and connected to her, are:
Hoel episcopus Namnetensis
Quiriacus
The genealogy is from a manuscript in the Vatican that belonged to Queen
Christina of Sweden. Poupardin says the provenance is certain, from
Saint-Aubin abbey at Angers. He thought they were compiled between 1066 and
ca 1080, definitely in the second half of the 11th century. He remarked that
there are several confusions but pointed out that other information was
correct and that perhaps the name Milesinde for the (wife of Judicail)
mother of Judith is acceptable even though this does not appear in other
sources.
Peter Stewart
news:f79s71htjn0splqs8m37impi1cj344lu34@4ax.com...
<chomp>
One early genealogy of the counts of Rennes which was dismissed by
Merlet came from René Poupardin's article "Généalogies Angevines du
XIe siècle" in "Mélanges d'Archéologie et d'Histoire de l'Ecole
française de Rome" 20 (1900), 199-208, at p. 206. Although I have no
reason to doubt Merlet's conclusion, I have not seen the above
article. Can anybody provide a full quote of the Breton material
which appears in that article?
I'm afraid my computer skills are not up to this task, and this post will
turn into a dog's breakfast - if so I can send it to you in a Word document
or better yet a photocopy of the article itself.
The Breton genealogy is in a table that wold require very elaborate
description in order to be followed in detail, or else reproduction. I will
try for a compromise between these.
There are 29 individuals with a few extra names for wives & mothers.
At the top are named, with no connecting lines:
Rex Nomenoius Salomon
Herrispoius Ridoredh
On the line below these names appears to the right:
ingenuus
Pascuithen
and on the same line, centred:
bastardus
Alanus major
In the following generation four of Alan's offspring are tabulated:
Wareth et filias duas Pascuithen
The descendants of Pascuithen aligned beneath his name are:
Beringerius
|
Conanus
|
Goffridus
|
Alanus
and in the following generation:
Conanus bastardus
Ex Berta fila Odonis et Gaufridus
comitis soror Tebaudi comitis
That is the end of the line from Pascuithen. Under the two unnamed daughters
of Alan are the following:
Madudoius habuit unam De altera orti sunt
de qua Rochisii
Alanus Barbatorta
The sons of Alan Barbetorte are:
Hoel et Guareth
then the sons ascribed to "Guareth" are:
Judicail Hoel Drogo
The three siblings in the next generation are below these names but not
connected to any of them:
bastardi de conjuge Milesinde
Rovallon Budich Judith
Under the name of Budich, but not connected to him, appear:
ex coniuge
Mathias Mathatias
Under Judith's name, and connected to her, are:
Hoel episcopus Namnetensis
Quiriacus
The genealogy is from a manuscript in the Vatican that belonged to Queen
Christina of Sweden. Poupardin says the provenance is certain, from
Saint-Aubin abbey at Angers. He thought they were compiled between 1066 and
ca 1080, definitely in the second half of the 11th century. He remarked that
there are several confusions but pointed out that other information was
correct and that perhaps the name Milesinde for the (wife of Judicail)
mother of Judith is acceptable even though this does not appear in other
sources.
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
Two typos in my post need correcting:
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:iOAfe.7263$31.505@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
This should be 'Herispoius'.
<snip>
Berta was naturally called 'filia Odonis' and not 'fila' - she was his
daughter, not a couple of strings to his bow.
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:iOAfe.7263$31.505@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
There are 29 individuals with a few extra names for wives & mothers.
At the top are named, with no connecting lines:
Rex Nomenoius Salomon
Herrispoius Ridoredh
This should be 'Herispoius'.
<snip>
Conanus bastardus
Ex Berta fila Odonis et Gaufridus
comitis soror Tebaudi comitis
Berta was naturally called 'filia Odonis' and not 'fila' - she was his
daughter, not a couple of strings to his bow.
Peter Stewart
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
On Mon, 09 May 2005 03:29:18 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[rest deleted]
Thanks for posting the information from this table. Merlet's account
of this source was very misleading, since he stated that it made the
NINTH century Bérenger a son of Pascweten and maternal grandson of
Salomon, whereas it is clear from the above that the table was
referring to Juhel Bérenger, who appears in some sources as just
Bérenger. It is interesting to note that a charter of 903 does in
fact give Alain le Grand a son named Pascweten [Redon Cartulary, pp.
376-7, available on Gallica].
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
Stewart Baldwin
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:f79s71htjn0splqs8m37impi1cj344lu34@4ax.com...
chomp
One early genealogy of the counts of Rennes which was dismissed by
Merlet came from René Poupardin's article "Généalogies Angevines du
XIe siècle" in "Mélanges d'Archéologie et d'Histoire de l'Ecole
française de Rome" 20 (1900), 199-208, at p. 206. Although I have no
reason to doubt Merlet's conclusion, I have not seen the above
article. Can anybody provide a full quote of the Breton material
which appears in that article?
I'm afraid my computer skills are not up to this task, and this post will
turn into a dog's breakfast - if so I can send it to you in a Word document
or better yet a photocopy of the article itself.
The Breton genealogy is in a table that wold require very elaborate
description in order to be followed in detail, or else reproduction. I will
try for a compromise between these.
There are 29 individuals with a few extra names for wives & mothers.
At the top are named, with no connecting lines:
Rex Nomenoius Salomon
Herrispoius Ridoredh
On the line below these names appears to the right:
ingenuus
Pascuithen
and on the same line, centred:
bastardus
Alanus major
In the following generation four of Alan's offspring are tabulated:
Wareth et filias duas Pascuithen
The descendants of Pascuithen aligned beneath his name are:
Beringerius
|
Conanus
|
Goffridus
|
Alanus
[rest deleted]
Thanks for posting the information from this table. Merlet's account
of this source was very misleading, since he stated that it made the
NINTH century Bérenger a son of Pascweten and maternal grandson of
Salomon, whereas it is clear from the above that the table was
referring to Juhel Bérenger, who appears in some sources as just
Bérenger. It is interesting to note that a charter of 903 does in
fact give Alain le Grand a son named Pascweten [Redon Cartulary, pp.
376-7, available on Gallica].
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
Stewart Baldwin
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
<...>
Stewart (and Peter),
Somewhere I've got a copy of someone's recent unpublished MA thesis on
this document (with a plausible commentary on why specific things are
included) as well as a good image of the MS page containing the
genealogies. I'm catching up on things, but I will post additional
information if I can dig it out and it seems germane. Let me know if
you would like a copy of the MS image.
Nat
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
<...>
Thanks for posting the information from this table. Merlet's account
of this source was very misleading, since he stated that it made the
NINTH century Bérenger a son of Pascweten and maternal grandson of
Salomon, whereas it is clear from the above that the table was
referring to Juhel Bérenger, who appears in some sources as just
Bérenger. It is interesting to note that a charter of 903 does in
fact give Alain le Grand a son named Pascweten [Redon Cartulary, pp.
376-7, available on Gallica].
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
Stewart (and Peter),
Somewhere I've got a copy of someone's recent unpublished MA thesis on
this document (with a plausible commentary on why specific things are
included) as well as a good image of the MS page containing the
genealogies. I'm catching up on things, but I will post additional
information if I can dig it out and it seems germane. Let me know if
you would like a copy of the MS image.
Nat
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
In article
<nathanieltaylor-C54D74.22055809052005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
Oops. I should make it clear that the document I'm referring to is not
that charter of 903, but the collection of genealogical stemmata, of the
late 11th century, penned together on a single MS leaf--published as the
"Genealogies angevines du XIeme siecle."
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
<nathanieltaylor-C54D74.22055809052005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2005 03:29:18 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
...
Thanks for posting the information from this table. Merlet's account
of this source was very misleading, since he stated that it made the
NINTH century Bérenger a son of Pascweten and maternal grandson of
Salomon, whereas it is clear from the above that the table was
referring to Juhel Bérenger, who appears in some sources as just
Bérenger. It is interesting to note that a charter of 903 does in
fact give Alain le Grand a son named Pascweten [Redon Cartulary, pp.
376-7, available on Gallica].
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
Stewart (and Peter),
Somewhere I've got a copy of someone's recent unpublished MA thesis on
this document (with a plausible commentary on why specific things are
included) as well as a good image of the MS page containing the
genealogies. I'm catching up on things, but I will post additional
information if I can dig it out and it seems germane. Let me know if
you would like a copy of the MS image.
Oops. I should make it clear that the document I'm referring to is not
that charter of 903, but the collection of genealogical stemmata, of the
late 11th century, penned together on a single MS leaf--published as the
"Genealogies angevines du XIeme siecle."
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[re: a table of the counts of Rennes]
The 'Saint-Aubin genealogies' (Bib. Apost. Vat., Reg. Lat. 1285, f. 65v)
are actually a MS leaf with set of loosely related genealogies of some
Angevin comital neighbors and relations (including the counts of Rennes
& Nantes), which may have been assembled as an omnibus genealogical
memorandum for use by or on behalf of the count. It ranges from the
Angevin comital line, to the Normans, the Bretons, Flanders, Blois /
Troyes, etc., and appears to be arranged to show various consanguinities
among them. Ryan Crisp (whose master's thesis on this [Ohio State U.,
1999] was condensed and reprinted in _The Plantagenet Connection_)
suggested (thesis, pp. 17-18) that the Angevin count may have been
interested in recording these relationships as a guide to possible
family marriage partners from among neighboring dynasties, or possibly
as a tool with which to raise cause political trouble via the Church
should he become aware of a prohibited match planned or consummated by
others.
It's an unusual example of such a working genealogical reference, whose
presence can otherwise be inferred chiefly by various examples mentioned
in contemporary letters.
I've put a copy of a microfilm scan of the leaf temporarily on line at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... inleaf.jpg
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[re: a table of the counts of Rennes]
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
The 'Saint-Aubin genealogies' (Bib. Apost. Vat., Reg. Lat. 1285, f. 65v)
are actually a MS leaf with set of loosely related genealogies of some
Angevin comital neighbors and relations (including the counts of Rennes
& Nantes), which may have been assembled as an omnibus genealogical
memorandum for use by or on behalf of the count. It ranges from the
Angevin comital line, to the Normans, the Bretons, Flanders, Blois /
Troyes, etc., and appears to be arranged to show various consanguinities
among them. Ryan Crisp (whose master's thesis on this [Ohio State U.,
1999] was condensed and reprinted in _The Plantagenet Connection_)
suggested (thesis, pp. 17-18) that the Angevin count may have been
interested in recording these relationships as a guide to possible
family marriage partners from among neighboring dynasties, or possibly
as a tool with which to raise cause political trouble via the Church
should he become aware of a prohibited match planned or consummated by
others.
It's an unusual example of such a working genealogical reference, whose
presence can otherwise be inferred chiefly by various examples mentioned
in contemporary letters.
I've put a copy of a microfilm scan of the leaf temporarily on line at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... inleaf.jpg
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
Thanks for making this available, Nat - it's interesting & useful to see the
inadequacies of Poupardin's edition as printed.
Peter Stewart
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-3194DB.14232110052005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
inadequacies of Poupardin's edition as printed.
Peter Stewart
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-3194DB.14232110052005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[re: a table of the counts of Rennes]
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
The 'Saint-Aubin genealogies' (Bib. Apost. Vat., Reg. Lat. 1285, f. 65v)
are actually a MS leaf with set of loosely related genealogies of some
Angevin comital neighbors and relations (including the counts of Rennes
& Nantes), which may have been assembled as an omnibus genealogical
memorandum for use by or on behalf of the count. It ranges from the
Angevin comital line, to the Normans, the Bretons, Flanders, Blois /
Troyes, etc., and appears to be arranged to show various consanguinities
among them. Ryan Crisp (whose master's thesis on this [Ohio State U.,
1999] was condensed and reprinted in _The Plantagenet Connection_)
suggested (thesis, pp. 17-18) that the Angevin count may have been
interested in recording these relationships as a guide to possible
family marriage partners from among neighboring dynasties, or possibly
as a tool with which to raise cause political trouble via the Church
should he become aware of a prohibited match planned or consummated by
others.
It's an unusual example of such a working genealogical reference, whose
presence can otherwise be inferred chiefly by various examples mentioned
in contemporary letters.
I've put a copy of a microfilm scan of the leaf temporarily on line at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... inleaf.jpg
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bér enger and Conan of Renne
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
I note that it explicitly shows Constance, Queen of France, to be
daughter of Blanche of Anjou. It had been speculated in this group,
when discussing this oft-married woman, that the chronology of her
supposed four successive marriages seems long, and that perhaps two
people had been merged into one, with Constance being maternal
granddaughter of Blanche. I never gave this proposed ammendment much
thought, but this pedigree makesit very unlikely. The pedigree appears
to have been composed during the reign of Henri I, and thus is nearly a
contemporary witness when it explicitly names Blanche of Anjou as his
maternal grandmother.
taf
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[re: a table of the counts of Rennes]
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
The 'Saint-Aubin genealogies' (Bib. Apost. Vat., Reg. Lat. 1285, f. 65v)
are actually a MS leaf with set of loosely related genealogies of some
Angevin comital neighbors and relations (including the counts of Rennes
& Nantes), which may have been assembled as an omnibus genealogical
memorandum for use by or on behalf of the count. It ranges from the
Angevin comital line, to the Normans, the Bretons, Flanders, Blois /
Troyes, etc.,
I note that it explicitly shows Constance, Queen of France, to be
daughter of Blanche of Anjou. It had been speculated in this group,
when discussing this oft-married woman, that the chronology of her
supposed four successive marriages seems long, and that perhaps two
people had been merged into one, with Constance being maternal
granddaughter of Blanche. I never gave this proposed ammendment much
thought, but this pedigree makesit very unlikely. The pedigree appears
to have been composed during the reign of Henri I, and thus is nearly a
contemporary witness when it explicitly names Blanche of Anjou as his
maternal grandmother.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:d5sm06$8ug$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
I can't agree with this - early sources, including two different copies of
one from Saint-Aubin at Angers, are very confused about the genealogy of
Constance.
Rodulf Glaber gave her father as William V, duke of Aquitaine [_Historiarum
libri quinque_, edited by John France (Oxford, 1989) p. 106: "Accepit autem
supradictus rex illius cognatam, nomine et animo Constantiam, inclitam
reginam, filiam uidelicet...Willelmi Aquitanie ducis" (The king [Robert]
married a relative of this man [Hugh, bishop of Auxerre], by name and nature
Constance, illustrious queen, daughter in fact of William, duke of
Aquitaine)].
Hugh of Fleury, writing early in the twelfth century, gave her father
correctly in one text ['Historia Francorum brevis', MGH SS 9 p. 385: "Hic
rex [Robertus]....Duxit autem uxorem Constantiam, filiam Guillelmi comitis
Arelatensis" (This king married Constance, daughter of Count William of
Arles)]; but in another work he named instead William III, count of Toulouse
(who may have been her half-brother - presumably the author did not realise
that these were two diffent men) ['Modernorum regum Francorum actus', ibid:
"Robertus...habuit...uxorem sapientam nomine Constanciam, filiam Guillelmi
Tholosani comitis" (Robert had a sensible [sic!] wife named Constance,
daughter of William of Toulouse)].
Moreover it is clear that chroniclers in Anjou had lost track of her
antecedents after Adelais Blanca had left for the south, giving her mother
as a daughter of Fulco the Good, count of Anjou while variously stating that
her father was King Lothair or King Louis V and that she carried the throne
from the Carolingian dynasty to her Capetian husband ['Annales Sancti Albini
Andegavensis' (NB the monastery where these genealogies were drawn up) in
_Recueil d'annales angevines et vendômoises_, edited by Louis Halphen
(Paris, 1903) p. 35, additamentum from codex B: "Lotharius...accepit uxorem
Blancham, filiam Fulconis Boni comitis Andegavensis...et habuit ex ea
filiam, Constantiam nomine, que fuit data cum regno Robberto regi" (Lothair
married Blanche, daughter of Fulco the Good, count of the Angevins, and had
with her a daughter, named Constance, who was given with the realm to King
Robert); and ibid note 1, from codex D: "Ludovicus Blanchiam, filiam
Fulchonis Boni, accepit uxorem. In quo reges Francorum defecerunt. Habuit
tamen filiam, Constantiam nomine, uxorem Roberti ducis et regis, materm
Hahinrici regis" (Louis married Blanche, daughter of Fulco the Good. With
him the Frankish kings became extinct. Yet he had a daughter, named
Constance, wife of Robert, the duke and king, mother of King Henry).
To me this level of confusion about a longstanding queen & famous termagant
is suspicous in itself, suggesting that maybe some ficton about her
parentage had been circulated to muddy the waters, as I conjectured before.
ANyway, I wouldn't set much store by this genealogy from Saint-Aubin just
because it originated in Anjou in the later half of the 11th century.
Peter Stewart
news:d5sm06$8ug$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <9qtv7195isohnqfs2p2unmm09mjm32j3p5@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:
[re: a table of the counts of Rennes]
I am curious why this table appears in what appears to be a collection
of Angevin genealogies.
The 'Saint-Aubin genealogies' (Bib. Apost. Vat., Reg. Lat. 1285, f. 65v)
are actually a MS leaf with set of loosely related genealogies of some
Angevin comital neighbors and relations (including the counts of Rennes &
Nantes), which may have been assembled as an omnibus genealogical
memorandum for use by or on behalf of the count. It ranges from the
Angevin comital line, to the Normans, the Bretons, Flanders, Blois /
Troyes, etc.,
I note that it explicitly shows Constance, Queen of France, to be daughter
of Blanche of Anjou. It had been speculated in this group, when
discussing this oft-married woman, that the chronology of her supposed
four successive marriages seems long, and that perhaps two people had been
merged into one, with Constance being maternal granddaughter of Blanche.
I never gave this proposed ammendment much thought, but this pedigree
makesit very unlikely. The pedigree appears to have been composed during
the reign of Henri I, and thus is nearly a contemporary witness when it
explicitly names Blanche of Anjou as his maternal grandmother.
I can't agree with this - early sources, including two different copies of
one from Saint-Aubin at Angers, are very confused about the genealogy of
Constance.
Rodulf Glaber gave her father as William V, duke of Aquitaine [_Historiarum
libri quinque_, edited by John France (Oxford, 1989) p. 106: "Accepit autem
supradictus rex illius cognatam, nomine et animo Constantiam, inclitam
reginam, filiam uidelicet...Willelmi Aquitanie ducis" (The king [Robert]
married a relative of this man [Hugh, bishop of Auxerre], by name and nature
Constance, illustrious queen, daughter in fact of William, duke of
Aquitaine)].
Hugh of Fleury, writing early in the twelfth century, gave her father
correctly in one text ['Historia Francorum brevis', MGH SS 9 p. 385: "Hic
rex [Robertus]....Duxit autem uxorem Constantiam, filiam Guillelmi comitis
Arelatensis" (This king married Constance, daughter of Count William of
Arles)]; but in another work he named instead William III, count of Toulouse
(who may have been her half-brother - presumably the author did not realise
that these were two diffent men) ['Modernorum regum Francorum actus', ibid:
"Robertus...habuit...uxorem sapientam nomine Constanciam, filiam Guillelmi
Tholosani comitis" (Robert had a sensible [sic!] wife named Constance,
daughter of William of Toulouse)].
Moreover it is clear that chroniclers in Anjou had lost track of her
antecedents after Adelais Blanca had left for the south, giving her mother
as a daughter of Fulco the Good, count of Anjou while variously stating that
her father was King Lothair or King Louis V and that she carried the throne
from the Carolingian dynasty to her Capetian husband ['Annales Sancti Albini
Andegavensis' (NB the monastery where these genealogies were drawn up) in
_Recueil d'annales angevines et vendômoises_, edited by Louis Halphen
(Paris, 1903) p. 35, additamentum from codex B: "Lotharius...accepit uxorem
Blancham, filiam Fulconis Boni comitis Andegavensis...et habuit ex ea
filiam, Constantiam nomine, que fuit data cum regno Robberto regi" (Lothair
married Blanche, daughter of Fulco the Good, count of the Angevins, and had
with her a daughter, named Constance, who was given with the realm to King
Robert); and ibid note 1, from codex D: "Ludovicus Blanchiam, filiam
Fulchonis Boni, accepit uxorem. In quo reges Francorum defecerunt. Habuit
tamen filiam, Constantiam nomine, uxorem Roberti ducis et regis, materm
Hahinrici regis" (Louis married Blanche, daughter of Fulco the Good. With
him the Frankish kings became extinct. Yet he had a daughter, named
Constance, wife of Robert, the duke and king, mother of King Henry).
To me this level of confusion about a longstanding queen & famous termagant
is suspicous in itself, suggesting that maybe some ficton about her
parentage had been circulated to muddy the waters, as I conjectured before.
ANyway, I wouldn't set much store by this genealogy from Saint-Aubin just
because it originated in Anjou in the later half of the 11th century.
Peter Stewart
-
Stewart Baldwin
Re: Bérenger of Neustria, Juhel Bérenger and Conan of Rennes
On Tue, 10 May 2005 18:20:35 GMT, Nathaniel Taylor
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
Thanks, Nat. I have seen various snippets of this document quoted in
various articles, and it is nice to see the whole thing.
It is now clear that Merlet made some very misleading statements in
his article "Origine de la famille des Bérenger comtes de Rennes et
ducs de Bretagne", in Mélanges d'Histoire du Moyen Age offerts à M.
Ferdinand Lot (Paris, 1825), 549-561. Referring to his "Bérenger
count of Rennes", supposed successor of count Judicaël in 888, he
states that according to a genealogy composed at Angers about the year
1070 [citing Poupardin's article], Bérenger would have been son of
Pacsweten and maternal grandson of Salomon, king of Brittany. Here,
he is evidently confusing his earlier Bérenger with his namesake
[Juhel] Bérenger, father of Conan, and Pascweten, son of Alan, with
Alan's brother count Pascweten, son-in-law of Salomon.
Merlet's dismisses this genealogy (and another, later one) by
suggesting that its purpose was to show a right of descent of the
counts of Rennes from the early kings of Brittany. However, we can
see that this is an Angevin document, and it is hard to see what
motive the Angevins would have to embellish the early genealogy of the
counts of Rennes. In addition, although count Pascweten and Alain le
Grand are known to have been brothers from other sources, I know of no
other statement giving the name of their father (who is given a
perfectly good Breton name, but is otherwise unokown so far as I
know), or stating that Pascweten was legitimate but Alain was
illegitimate. If the motive was to present an illustrious descent of
the counts of Rennes, why would they include this information about
illegitimacy when it could easily have been left out?
Thus, the only negative argument I see at the moment with regard to
this claim about Bérenger's father is that the document fails to be
contemporary by a century or so. It provides [Juhel] Bérenger with a
rather obscure father who is chronologically possible and whose
existence (but little else) is confirmed by charter evidence.
So, the obvious question is whether or not there is any other evidence
either for or against this statement. Also, how many demonstrably
false (as opposed to unconfirmed) statements are present in the
document as a whole?
Stewart Baldwin
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:
I've put a copy of a microfilm scan of the leaf temporarily on line at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... inleaf.jpg
Thanks, Nat. I have seen various snippets of this document quoted in
various articles, and it is nice to see the whole thing.
It is now clear that Merlet made some very misleading statements in
his article "Origine de la famille des Bérenger comtes de Rennes et
ducs de Bretagne", in Mélanges d'Histoire du Moyen Age offerts à M.
Ferdinand Lot (Paris, 1825), 549-561. Referring to his "Bérenger
count of Rennes", supposed successor of count Judicaël in 888, he
states that according to a genealogy composed at Angers about the year
1070 [citing Poupardin's article], Bérenger would have been son of
Pacsweten and maternal grandson of Salomon, king of Brittany. Here,
he is evidently confusing his earlier Bérenger with his namesake
[Juhel] Bérenger, father of Conan, and Pascweten, son of Alan, with
Alan's brother count Pascweten, son-in-law of Salomon.
Merlet's dismisses this genealogy (and another, later one) by
suggesting that its purpose was to show a right of descent of the
counts of Rennes from the early kings of Brittany. However, we can
see that this is an Angevin document, and it is hard to see what
motive the Angevins would have to embellish the early genealogy of the
counts of Rennes. In addition, although count Pascweten and Alain le
Grand are known to have been brothers from other sources, I know of no
other statement giving the name of their father (who is given a
perfectly good Breton name, but is otherwise unokown so far as I
know), or stating that Pascweten was legitimate but Alain was
illegitimate. If the motive was to present an illustrious descent of
the counts of Rennes, why would they include this information about
illegitimacy when it could easily have been left out?
Thus, the only negative argument I see at the moment with regard to
this claim about Bérenger's father is that the document fails to be
contemporary by a century or so. It provides [Juhel] Bérenger with a
rather obscure father who is chronologically possible and whose
existence (but little else) is confirmed by charter evidence.
So, the obvious question is whether or not there is any other evidence
either for or against this statement. Also, how many demonstrably
false (as opposed to unconfirmed) statements are present in the
document as a whole?
Stewart Baldwin