Swines of the Ardennes
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Leo van de Pas
Swines of the Ardennes
In Dutch history Willem van Lumey was known as "the Eber (wild boar/pig) of the Ardennes"
and for some reasons Emperor Maximilian did not like him and had him beheaded in 1485.
By looking in ESNF Volume VI Tafel 18 I find he is not the only swine in that family.
His father Johann II and his brother Eberhard III also have this "Eber des Ardennen" recorded with their name. Does anyone know what the meaning is of this.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
and for some reasons Emperor Maximilian did not like him and had him beheaded in 1485.
By looking in ESNF Volume VI Tafel 18 I find he is not the only swine in that family.
His father Johann II and his brother Eberhard III also have this "Eber des Ardennen" recorded with their name. Does anyone know what the meaning is of this.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000801c552ac$de1b22a0$c3b4fea9@email...
So the Holy Roman Empire was a moderated newsgroup?
Peter Stewart
news:000801c552ac$de1b22a0$c3b4fea9@email...
In Dutch history Willem van Lumey was known as "the Eber (wild boar/pig)
of the Ardennes"
and for some reasons Emperor Maximilian did not like him and had him
beheaded in 1485.
So the Holy Roman Empire was a moderated newsgroup?
Peter Stewart
-
Patrick Henin
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000801c552ac$de1b22a0$c3b4fea9@email...
was nicknamed 'le Sanglier des Ardennes' because he was "as wild as a boar"
Quote:Le Sanglier des Ardennes; ambitieux, avide de gloire et de richesse.
Fomenta l'assassinat du Pce Ev Lg Louis de Bourbon (1482) .He was beheaded
in Maestricht.(1485)
So he was the mastermind of the murder of a Head of State (who was not loved
by the people)The Lamarck family ^played an important role in the History of
Liege.They supported the "French Party" against Bourgogne.
news:000801c552ac$de1b22a0$c3b4fea9@email...
In Dutch history Willem van Lumey was known as "the Eber (wild boar/pig)
of the Ardennes"
and for some reasons Emperor Maximilian did not like him and had him
beheaded in 1485.
By looking in ESNF Volume VI Tafel 18 I find he is not the only swine in
that family.
His father Johann II and his brother Eberhard III also have this "Eber des
Ardennen" recorded with their name. Does anyone know what the meaning is
of this.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Everard de La Marck (s. de Lummen , now Belgian Limburg,Aigremont,Bouillon)
was nicknamed 'le Sanglier des Ardennes' because he was "as wild as a boar"
Quote:Le Sanglier des Ardennes; ambitieux, avide de gloire et de richesse.
Fomenta l'assassinat du Pce Ev Lg Louis de Bourbon (1482) .He was beheaded
in Maestricht.(1485)
So he was the mastermind of the murder of a Head of State (who was not loved
by the people)The Lamarck family ^played an important role in the History of
Liege.They supported the "French Party" against Bourgogne.
-
Patrick Henin
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000f01c55337$eeb6ef00$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Leo,
I may be wrong , but to my knowledge , he was the only one with that
nickname.At school ,he was presented as more cruel and lawless than other
family members.Another member of that famous family became Prince Bishop
:Erard de La Marck(1505-1538).His time is considered as a Golden Age for the
City.A real renaissance prelate, he was criticized by Luther .
He tried to remain neutral, facing powerful neighbours.The Kings of France
(Louis XII , François I) and the great Charles V of Spain (born in Ghent in
1500).He was a great builder too:he re-built his Palace (it still stands
today) and churches.He favoured the artists and was even a friend of Pope
Paul III. He was not "un sanglier"!
Source (modern): Bruno Demoulin & Jean Louis Kupper, Histoire de la
Principauté de Liège, Editions Privat, Toulouse,2002
ISBN2.7089.4775.3
Patrick.
news:000f01c55337$eeb6ef00$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Patrick,
Many thanks, but why his father and brother as well? If it was not his
personal nickname?
Leo
Dear Leo,
I may be wrong , but to my knowledge , he was the only one with that
nickname.At school ,he was presented as more cruel and lawless than other
family members.Another member of that famous family became Prince Bishop
:Erard de La Marck(1505-1538).His time is considered as a Golden Age for the
City.A real renaissance prelate, he was criticized by Luther .
He tried to remain neutral, facing powerful neighbours.The Kings of France
(Louis XII , François I) and the great Charles V of Spain (born in Ghent in
1500).He was a great builder too:he re-built his Palace (it still stands
today) and churches.He favoured the artists and was even a friend of Pope
Paul III. He was not "un sanglier"!
Source (modern): Bruno Demoulin & Jean Louis Kupper, Histoire de la
Principauté de Liège, Editions Privat, Toulouse,2002
ISBN2.7089.4775.3
Patrick.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
Dear Patrick,
Many thanks, but why his father and brother as well? If it was not his
personal nickname?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
Many thanks, but why his father and brother as well? If it was not his
personal nickname?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000801c552ac$de1b22a0$c3b4fea9@email...
In Dutch history Willem van Lumey was known as "the Eber (wild boar/pig)
of the Ardennes"
and for some reasons Emperor Maximilian did not like him and had him
beheaded in 1485.
By looking in ESNF Volume VI Tafel 18 I find he is not the only swine in
that family.
His father Johann II and his brother Eberhard III also have this "Eber
des
Ardennen" recorded with their name. Does anyone know what the meaning is
of this.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Everard de La Marck (s. de Lummen , now Belgian
Limburg,Aigremont,Bouillon)
was nicknamed 'le Sanglier des Ardennes' because he was "as wild as a
boar"
Quote:Le Sanglier des Ardennes; ambitieux, avide de gloire et de richesse.
Fomenta l'assassinat du Pce Ev Lg Louis de Bourbon (1482) .He was beheaded
in Maestricht.(1485)
So he was the mastermind of the murder of a Head of State (who was not
loved
by the people)The Lamarck family ^played an important role in the History
of
Liege.They supported the "French Party" against Bourgogne.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
Dear Patrick,
In Europaische Stammtafeln both his father and (only) one brother are also
called Eber der Ardennen, this is what I find confusing. One person can get
a nickname, but the same one for three members of the same family sounds
like a 'function/position'. Like the Great Bastard of Burgundy, this was
held by one illegitimate son of the Duke of Burgundy and when he died
another illegitimate son obtained that name/nickname/title.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
In Europaische Stammtafeln both his father and (only) one brother are also
called Eber der Ardennen, this is what I find confusing. One person can get
a nickname, but the same one for three members of the same family sounds
like a 'function/position'. Like the Great Bastard of Burgundy, this was
held by one illegitimate son of the Duke of Burgundy and when he died
another illegitimate son obtained that name/nickname/title.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000f01c55337$eeb6ef00$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Patrick,
Many thanks, but why his father and brother as well? If it was not his
personal nickname?
Leo
Dear Leo,
I may be wrong , but to my knowledge , he was the only one with that
nickname.At school ,he was presented as more cruel and lawless than other
family members.Another member of that famous family became Prince Bishop
:Erard de La Marck(1505-1538).His time is considered as a Golden Age for
the
City.A real renaissance prelate, he was criticized by Luther .
He tried to remain neutral, facing powerful neighbours.The Kings of France
(Louis XII , François I) and the great Charles V of Spain (born in Ghent
in
1500).He was a great builder too:he re-built his Palace (it still stands
today) and churches.He favoured the artists and was even a friend of Pope
Paul III. He was not "un sanglier"!
Source (modern): Bruno Demoulin & Jean Louis Kupper, Histoire de la
Principauté de Liège, Editions Privat, Toulouse,2002
ISBN2.7089.4775.3
Patrick.
-
Richard Smyth at Road Run
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
In Europaische Stammtafeln both his father and (only) one brother are also
called Eber der Ardennen, this is what I find confusing.
Muret-Sanders German-Englich dictionary has (in addition to "male hog") the
following entry for "Eber": "her[aldry]. marcassin." In heraldry
"marcassin" usually intends "young boar" which is distinguished from an old
boar by having a tail hanging down, instead of being twisted. In any event
and whatever the relevance of these later developments, I do not believe
that "Eber" should necessarily be interpreted to mean "wild boar", which
would be "wilder Eber". Muret-Sanders derive the word from the
althochdeutsch "ebur", which they compare with the latin "aper". For the
Latin "aper" Whitaker gives" "boar, wild boar (as animal, food, or used as a
Legion standard/symbol); a fish".
All of which suggests to me that one needs to do some work on the exact
meaning of the word in the original texts before one gets too far into
speculation about why the term seemed appropriate.
Regards,
Richard Smyth
smyth@nc.rr.com
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
Dear Richard,
You feel the nickname could be derived from a coat-of-arms? Possibly from a
territory subsequently owned by the father and his two sons?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Smyth at Road Runner" <smyth@nc.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
You feel the nickname could be derived from a coat-of-arms? Possibly from a
territory subsequently owned by the father and his two sons?
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Smyth at Road Runner" <smyth@nc.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
In Europaische Stammtafeln both his father and (only) one brother are
also
called Eber der Ardennen, this is what I find confusing.
Muret-Sanders German-Englich dictionary has (in addition to "male hog")
the
following entry for "Eber": "her[aldry]. marcassin." In heraldry
"marcassin" usually intends "young boar" which is distinguished from an
old
boar by having a tail hanging down, instead of being twisted. In any
event
and whatever the relevance of these later developments, I do not believe
that "Eber" should necessarily be interpreted to mean "wild boar", which
would be "wilder Eber". Muret-Sanders derive the word from the
althochdeutsch "ebur", which they compare with the latin "aper". For the
Latin "aper" Whitaker gives" "boar, wild boar (as animal, food, or used as
a
Legion standard/symbol); a fish".
All of which suggests to me that one needs to do some work on the exact
meaning of the word in the original texts before one gets too far into
speculation about why the term seemed appropriate.
Regards,
Richard Smyth
smyth@nc.rr.com
-
Leo van de Pas
Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
Everard de La Marck (s. de Lummen , now Belgian
Limburg,Aigremont,Bouillon)
was nicknamed 'le Sanglier des Ardennes' because he was "as wild as a
boar"
Quote:Le Sanglier des Ardennes; ambitieux, avide de gloire et de richesse.
Fomenta l'assassinat du Pce Ev Lg Louis de Bourbon (1482) .He was beheaded
in Maestricht.(1485)
So he was the mastermind of the murder of a Head of State (who was not
loved
by the people)The Lamarck family ^played an important role in the History
of
Liege.They supported the "French Party" against Bourgogne.
I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But Everard
lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in Maastricht
on 18 June 1485.
Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis de
Bourbon?
I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story. Why
was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the Duke
of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married and
had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed in
battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but as
he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not eligible
to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still very
much in existance today.
Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
José Verheecke
Re: Swines of the Ardennes
Hi
There was a article recently about Lumey in
the Vlaamse Stam[1]:it sheds some light on this matter.
p.509 note 1:
There is a lot of confusion with regard to the nickname
'Everzwijn der Ardennen'[Le sanglier des Ardennes].
Most historians,an nearly all websites,confuse Evrard II,
his sons Evrard III & Willem I & great-grandson Willem II
'de Lumey'.
Jules baron Chestret de Haneffe explains,in his 'Histoire
de la maison de la Marck.."(Liège 1898):
"ce dernier surnom('Sanglier des Ardennes'),déjà donné par la voix
publique à son père et à son frère Everard,passa ensuite à son digne neveu
Robert II seigneur de Sedan.Il n'appartenait donc pas en propre
à Guillaume de la Marck,et bien que cette manière de le désigner soit
consacrée par l'usage,il convient de remarquer qu'on ne la
rencontre que chez un seul chroniqueur contemporain,Jean
de Roye,dans le récit qu'il fait du meurtre de Louis de Bourbon,
en 1482[t.2 p.118].Molinet au contraire,l'appelle constamment
'la Barbe',d'autres disent 'Guillaume à la Barbe','Willem
metten baerde' &tc"
[1]Willy Alenus:'Lumey' de beroemdste Limburger aller tijden
(Vlaamse Stam 2004 #6 pp503-514)(further a&c in 2005:31-41)
So,although this doesn't explain what the nickname "le Sanglier"
means exactly-we can guess-it was kind of hereditary.
Hope this helps
--
José Verheecke
jose.verheecke@pandora.be
http://home.scarlet.be/~jos81/index.html
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:000401c55349$4fbafe20$c3b4fea9@email...
There was a article recently about Lumey in
the Vlaamse Stam[1]:it sheds some light on this matter.
p.509 note 1:
There is a lot of confusion with regard to the nickname
'Everzwijn der Ardennen'[Le sanglier des Ardennes].
Most historians,an nearly all websites,confuse Evrard II,
his sons Evrard III & Willem I & great-grandson Willem II
'de Lumey'.
Jules baron Chestret de Haneffe explains,in his 'Histoire
de la maison de la Marck.."(Liège 1898):
"ce dernier surnom('Sanglier des Ardennes'),déjà donné par la voix
publique à son père et à son frère Everard,passa ensuite à son digne neveu
Robert II seigneur de Sedan.Il n'appartenait donc pas en propre
à Guillaume de la Marck,et bien que cette manière de le désigner soit
consacrée par l'usage,il convient de remarquer qu'on ne la
rencontre que chez un seul chroniqueur contemporain,Jean
de Roye,dans le récit qu'il fait du meurtre de Louis de Bourbon,
en 1482[t.2 p.118].Molinet au contraire,l'appelle constamment
'la Barbe',d'autres disent 'Guillaume à la Barbe','Willem
metten baerde' &tc"
[1]Willy Alenus:'Lumey' de beroemdste Limburger aller tijden
(Vlaamse Stam 2004 #6 pp503-514)(further a&c in 2005:31-41)
So,although this doesn't explain what the nickname "le Sanglier"
means exactly-we can guess-it was kind of hereditary.
Hope this helps
--
José Verheecke
jose.verheecke@pandora.be
http://home.scarlet.be/~jos81/index.html
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:000401c55349$4fbafe20$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Patrick,
In Europaische Stammtafeln both his father and (only) one brother are also
called Eber der Ardennen, this is what I find confusing. One person can
get
a nickname, but the same one for three members of the same family sounds
like a 'function/position'. Like the Great Bastard of Burgundy, this was
held by one illegitimate son of the Duke of Burgundy and when he died
another illegitimate son obtained that name/nickname/title.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Swines of the Ardennes
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000f01c55337$eeb6ef00$c3b4fea9@email...
Dear Patrick,
Many thanks, but why his father and brother as well? If it was not his
personal nickname?
Leo
Dear Leo,
I may be wrong , but to my knowledge , he was the only one with that
nickname.At school ,he was presented as more cruel and lawless than other
family members.Another member of that famous family became Prince Bishop
:Erard de La Marck(1505-1538).His time is considered as a Golden Age for
the
City.A real renaissance prelate, he was criticized by Luther .
He tried to remain neutral, facing powerful neighbours.The Kings of
France
(Louis XII , François I) and the great Charles V of Spain (born in Ghent
in
1500).He was a great builder too:he re-built his Palace (it still stands
today) and churches.He favoured the artists and was even a friend of Pope
Paul III. He was not "un sanglier"!
Source (modern): Bruno Demoulin & Jean Louis Kupper, Histoire de la
Principauté de Liège, Editions Privat, Toulouse,2002
ISBN2.7089.4775.3
Patrick.
-
Willem Nabuurs
RE: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
Leo,
Entry on Louis from the Dutch encyclopaedia Grand Larousse (I believe you
can read Dutch)
Lodewijk van Bourbon, prins-bisschop van Luik (1438-bij Luik 1482), zoon van
Karel I van Bourbon en van Agnes, dochter van Jan zonder Vrees. In 1456 werd
hij dank zij zijn oom Filips de Goede tot bisschop gekozen. Zijn sympathie
voor Bourgondie en zijn weelderig leven brachten de burgerij tot verzet. De
zgn. Kluppelslagers kregen steun van de Franse koning Lodewijk XI en
Lodewijk moest de stad verlaten (1458). Tijdens de oorlog die tussen de
Franse koning en de Bourgondische Karel de Stoute was losgebroken, werd Luik
het slachtoffer van de wisselende krijgskansen; toen de opstandige burgerij
aan de macht kwam, strafte bisschop Lodewijk vanuit Maastricht Luik met een
interdict (1461). Pas in 1468 kon hij terugkeren, nadat de Luikenaars Marcus
van Baden als bisschop hadden gekozen. De laatste vluchtte, en tijdens de
korte afwezigheid van de bisschop herstelde men de volksmacht. Karel de
Stoute wreekte zich door geheel Luik te verwoesten en te plunderen
(okt.-nov. 1468). Toen na een periode van betrekkelijke rust Willem van der
Marck, gesteund door Lodewijk XI, met zijn troepen Luik aanviel, sneuvelde
bisschop Lodewijk.
From the book "Mannen met macht. Edellieden en de Moderne Staat in de
Bourgondisch-Habsburgse landen (1475-1530)" from Hans Cools (Walburg Pers,
2001), that contains biographies on a lot of Dutch noblemen from said
period, I read: "L. (read: Lodewijk) werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door
soldaten van Willem van der Mark (page 163)." However, later in the book it
reads "Lodewijk werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door Willem van der Mark
en zijn trawanten" (page 314)
The book from Hans Cools has some references to other Works, like P. Harsin.
La principauté de Liège a la fin du règne de Louis de Bourbon et sous celui
de Jean de Hornes. 1477-1505 (Etudes critiques sur l'histoire de la
Principauté de Liège. 1477-1495. I). Liege, 1957. I do not have access to
these works.
So, for everybody who doesn't speak Dutch, this seems to be the case:
- Louis was not beloved because he favoured his brother-in-law Charles, the
Duke of Burgundy, while the people of Liege favoured the King of France
instead. Furthermore he lived his life in too much wealth (in the eyes of
the people of Liege)
- Willem van der Mark was involved in the death of Louis de Bourbon. Louis
was killed by Willem's soldiers, Willem might have been present when that
happened.
Willem Nabuurs
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Verzonden: zondag 8 mei 2005 6:19
Aan: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But Everard
lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in Maastricht
on 18 June 1485.
Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis de
Bourbon?
I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story. Why
was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the Duke
of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married and
had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed in
battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but as
he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not eligible
to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still very
much in existance today.
Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Entry on Louis from the Dutch encyclopaedia Grand Larousse (I believe you
can read Dutch)
Lodewijk van Bourbon, prins-bisschop van Luik (1438-bij Luik 1482), zoon van
Karel I van Bourbon en van Agnes, dochter van Jan zonder Vrees. In 1456 werd
hij dank zij zijn oom Filips de Goede tot bisschop gekozen. Zijn sympathie
voor Bourgondie en zijn weelderig leven brachten de burgerij tot verzet. De
zgn. Kluppelslagers kregen steun van de Franse koning Lodewijk XI en
Lodewijk moest de stad verlaten (1458). Tijdens de oorlog die tussen de
Franse koning en de Bourgondische Karel de Stoute was losgebroken, werd Luik
het slachtoffer van de wisselende krijgskansen; toen de opstandige burgerij
aan de macht kwam, strafte bisschop Lodewijk vanuit Maastricht Luik met een
interdict (1461). Pas in 1468 kon hij terugkeren, nadat de Luikenaars Marcus
van Baden als bisschop hadden gekozen. De laatste vluchtte, en tijdens de
korte afwezigheid van de bisschop herstelde men de volksmacht. Karel de
Stoute wreekte zich door geheel Luik te verwoesten en te plunderen
(okt.-nov. 1468). Toen na een periode van betrekkelijke rust Willem van der
Marck, gesteund door Lodewijk XI, met zijn troepen Luik aanviel, sneuvelde
bisschop Lodewijk.
From the book "Mannen met macht. Edellieden en de Moderne Staat in de
Bourgondisch-Habsburgse landen (1475-1530)" from Hans Cools (Walburg Pers,
2001), that contains biographies on a lot of Dutch noblemen from said
period, I read: "L. (read: Lodewijk) werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door
soldaten van Willem van der Mark (page 163)." However, later in the book it
reads "Lodewijk werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door Willem van der Mark
en zijn trawanten" (page 314)
The book from Hans Cools has some references to other Works, like P. Harsin.
La principauté de Liège a la fin du règne de Louis de Bourbon et sous celui
de Jean de Hornes. 1477-1505 (Etudes critiques sur l'histoire de la
Principauté de Liège. 1477-1495. I). Liege, 1957. I do not have access to
these works.
So, for everybody who doesn't speak Dutch, this seems to be the case:
- Louis was not beloved because he favoured his brother-in-law Charles, the
Duke of Burgundy, while the people of Liege favoured the King of France
instead. Furthermore he lived his life in too much wealth (in the eyes of
the people of Liege)
- Willem van der Mark was involved in the death of Louis de Bourbon. Louis
was killed by Willem's soldiers, Willem might have been present when that
happened.
Willem Nabuurs
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Verzonden: zondag 8 mei 2005 6:19
Aan: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But Everard
lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in Maastricht
on 18 June 1485.
Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis de
Bourbon?
I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story. Why
was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the Duke
of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married and
had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed in
battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but as
he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not eligible
to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still very
much in existance today.
Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
Many thanks for this. Yes, I can read Dutch. Strange nothing was mentioned
about him having married the Duke of Gelre's sister. It seems he was killed
in battle not in an assassination plot.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Willem Nabuurs" <willemnabuurs@xs4all.nl>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
about him having married the Duke of Gelre's sister. It seems he was killed
in battle not in an assassination plot.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Willem Nabuurs" <willemnabuurs@xs4all.nl>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
Leo,
Entry on Louis from the Dutch encyclopaedia Grand Larousse (I believe you
can read Dutch)
Lodewijk van Bourbon, prins-bisschop van Luik (1438-bij Luik 1482), zoon
van
Karel I van Bourbon en van Agnes, dochter van Jan zonder Vrees. In 1456
werd
hij dank zij zijn oom Filips de Goede tot bisschop gekozen. Zijn sympathie
voor Bourgondie en zijn weelderig leven brachten de burgerij tot verzet.
De
zgn. Kluppelslagers kregen steun van de Franse koning Lodewijk XI en
Lodewijk moest de stad verlaten (1458). Tijdens de oorlog die tussen de
Franse koning en de Bourgondische Karel de Stoute was losgebroken, werd
Luik
het slachtoffer van de wisselende krijgskansen; toen de opstandige
burgerij
aan de macht kwam, strafte bisschop Lodewijk vanuit Maastricht Luik met
een
interdict (1461). Pas in 1468 kon hij terugkeren, nadat de Luikenaars
Marcus
van Baden als bisschop hadden gekozen. De laatste vluchtte, en tijdens de
korte afwezigheid van de bisschop herstelde men de volksmacht. Karel de
Stoute wreekte zich door geheel Luik te verwoesten en te plunderen
(okt.-nov. 1468). Toen na een periode van betrekkelijke rust Willem van
der
Marck, gesteund door Lodewijk XI, met zijn troepen Luik aanviel, sneuvelde
bisschop Lodewijk.
From the book "Mannen met macht. Edellieden en de Moderne Staat in de
Bourgondisch-Habsburgse landen (1475-1530)" from Hans Cools (Walburg Pers,
2001), that contains biographies on a lot of Dutch noblemen from said
period, I read: "L. (read: Lodewijk) werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord
door
soldaten van Willem van der Mark (page 163)." However, later in the book
it
reads "Lodewijk werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door Willem van der Mark
en zijn trawanten" (page 314)
The book from Hans Cools has some references to other Works, like P.
Harsin.
La principauté de Liège a la fin du règne de Louis de Bourbon et sous
celui
de Jean de Hornes. 1477-1505 (Etudes critiques sur l'histoire de la
Principauté de Liège. 1477-1495. I). Liege, 1957. I do not have access to
these works.
So, for everybody who doesn't speak Dutch, this seems to be the case:
- Louis was not beloved because he favoured his brother-in-law Charles,
the
Duke of Burgundy, while the people of Liege favoured the King of France
instead. Furthermore he lived his life in too much wealth (in the eyes of
the people of Liege)
- Willem van der Mark was involved in the death of Louis de Bourbon. Louis
was killed by Willem's soldiers, Willem might have been present when that
happened.
Willem Nabuurs
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Verzonden: zondag 8 mei 2005 6:19
Aan: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Onderwerp: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But
Everard
lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in
Maastricht
on 18 June 1485.
Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis de
Bourbon?
I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story.
Why
was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the
Duke
of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married
and
had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed in
battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but
as
he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not
eligible
to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still very
much in existance today.
Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-
Frebault
Re: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
Leo,
The "eber der Ardennen" is symbolic for the Ardennes. Still now you can find
a lot of Hotels or Restaurants with the name "Le sanglier des Ardennes".
Religion was very important for the Gauls. Water, the sky, the tree, the
wind, the river, the spring, the forest, the village represented for them
the soul of things. The divinities of Ardennes were not abandonned but
adapted to the Roman divinities with their mysterious animal. Arduenna, the
goddess of hunting and of the forest, being astride a wild boar, became
Diana. Same altars were erected so as to celebrate Dea Arduenna (or
Arduinna), Diana of Ardennes, who represented Ardennes, the land of trees,
of the running waters, of the shades and of the animals who lived there.
Henri Frebault
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
news:000901c553b8$23182540$c3b4fea9@email...
| Many thanks for this. Yes, I can read Dutch. Strange nothing was mentioned
| about him having married the Duke of Gelre's sister. It seems he was
killed
| in battle not in an assassination plot.
| Leo
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Willem Nabuurs" <willemnabuurs@xs4all.nl>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:46 PM
| Subject: RE: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
|
|
| > Leo,
| >
| > Entry on Louis from the Dutch encyclopaedia Grand Larousse (I believe
you
| > can read Dutch)
| >
| > Lodewijk van Bourbon, prins-bisschop van Luik (1438-bij Luik 1482), zoon
| van
| > Karel I van Bourbon en van Agnes, dochter van Jan zonder Vrees. In 1456
| werd
| > hij dank zij zijn oom Filips de Goede tot bisschop gekozen. Zijn
sympathie
| > voor Bourgondie en zijn weelderig leven brachten de burgerij tot verzet.
| De
| > zgn. Kluppelslagers kregen steun van de Franse koning Lodewijk XI en
| > Lodewijk moest de stad verlaten (1458). Tijdens de oorlog die tussen de
| > Franse koning en de Bourgondische Karel de Stoute was losgebroken, werd
| Luik
| > het slachtoffer van de wisselende krijgskansen; toen de opstandige
| burgerij
| > aan de macht kwam, strafte bisschop Lodewijk vanuit Maastricht Luik met
| een
| > interdict (1461). Pas in 1468 kon hij terugkeren, nadat de Luikenaars
| Marcus
| > van Baden als bisschop hadden gekozen. De laatste vluchtte, en tijdens
de
| > korte afwezigheid van de bisschop herstelde men de volksmacht. Karel de
| > Stoute wreekte zich door geheel Luik te verwoesten en te plunderen
| > (okt.-nov. 1468). Toen na een periode van betrekkelijke rust Willem van
| der
| > Marck, gesteund door Lodewijk XI, met zijn troepen Luik aanviel,
sneuvelde
| > bisschop Lodewijk.
| >
| > From the book "Mannen met macht. Edellieden en de Moderne Staat in de
| > Bourgondisch-Habsburgse landen (1475-1530)" from Hans Cools (Walburg
Pers,
| > 2001), that contains biographies on a lot of Dutch noblemen from said
| > period, I read: "L. (read: Lodewijk) werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord
| door
| > soldaten van Willem van der Mark (page 163)." However, later in the book
| it
| > reads "Lodewijk werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door Willem van der
Mark
| > en zijn trawanten" (page 314)
| >
| > The book from Hans Cools has some references to other Works, like P.
| Harsin.
| > La principauté de Liège a la fin du règne de Louis de Bourbon et sous
| celui
| > de Jean de Hornes. 1477-1505 (Etudes critiques sur l'histoire de la
| > Principauté de Liège. 1477-1495. I). Liege, 1957. I do not have access
to
| > these works.
| >
| > So, for everybody who doesn't speak Dutch, this seems to be the case:
| > - Louis was not beloved because he favoured his brother-in-law Charles,
| the
| > Duke of Burgundy, while the people of Liege favoured the King of France
| > instead. Furthermore he lived his life in too much wealth (in the eyes
of
| > the people of Liege)
| > - Willem van der Mark was involved in the death of Louis de Bourbon.
Louis
| > was killed by Willem's soldiers, Willem might have been present when
that
| > happened.
| >
| > Willem Nabuurs
| >
| >
| > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
| > Van: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
| > Verzonden: zondag 8 mei 2005 6:19
| > Aan: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| > Onderwerp: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
| >
| >
| > I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
| > Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But
| Everard
| > lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in
| Maastricht
| > on 18 June 1485.
| > Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis
de
| > Bourbon?
| >
| > I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story.
| Why
| > was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
| > Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the
| Duke
| > of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married
| and
| > had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
| >
| > Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed
in
| > battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
| >
| > In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but
| as
| > he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not
| eligible
| > to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still
very
| > much in existance today.
| >
| > Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
| >
| > Many thanks
| > Leo van de Pas
| > Canberra, Australia
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
The "eber der Ardennen" is symbolic for the Ardennes. Still now you can find
a lot of Hotels or Restaurants with the name "Le sanglier des Ardennes".
Religion was very important for the Gauls. Water, the sky, the tree, the
wind, the river, the spring, the forest, the village represented for them
the soul of things. The divinities of Ardennes were not abandonned but
adapted to the Roman divinities with their mysterious animal. Arduenna, the
goddess of hunting and of the forest, being astride a wild boar, became
Diana. Same altars were erected so as to celebrate Dea Arduenna (or
Arduinna), Diana of Ardennes, who represented Ardennes, the land of trees,
of the running waters, of the shades and of the animals who lived there.
Henri Frebault
""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> escribió en el mensaje
news:000901c553b8$23182540$c3b4fea9@email...
| Many thanks for this. Yes, I can read Dutch. Strange nothing was mentioned
| about him having married the Duke of Gelre's sister. It seems he was
killed
| in battle not in an assassination plot.
| Leo
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Willem Nabuurs" <willemnabuurs@xs4all.nl>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 7:46 PM
| Subject: RE: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
|
|
| > Leo,
| >
| > Entry on Louis from the Dutch encyclopaedia Grand Larousse (I believe
you
| > can read Dutch)
| >
| > Lodewijk van Bourbon, prins-bisschop van Luik (1438-bij Luik 1482), zoon
| van
| > Karel I van Bourbon en van Agnes, dochter van Jan zonder Vrees. In 1456
| werd
| > hij dank zij zijn oom Filips de Goede tot bisschop gekozen. Zijn
sympathie
| > voor Bourgondie en zijn weelderig leven brachten de burgerij tot verzet.
| De
| > zgn. Kluppelslagers kregen steun van de Franse koning Lodewijk XI en
| > Lodewijk moest de stad verlaten (1458). Tijdens de oorlog die tussen de
| > Franse koning en de Bourgondische Karel de Stoute was losgebroken, werd
| Luik
| > het slachtoffer van de wisselende krijgskansen; toen de opstandige
| burgerij
| > aan de macht kwam, strafte bisschop Lodewijk vanuit Maastricht Luik met
| een
| > interdict (1461). Pas in 1468 kon hij terugkeren, nadat de Luikenaars
| Marcus
| > van Baden als bisschop hadden gekozen. De laatste vluchtte, en tijdens
de
| > korte afwezigheid van de bisschop herstelde men de volksmacht. Karel de
| > Stoute wreekte zich door geheel Luik te verwoesten en te plunderen
| > (okt.-nov. 1468). Toen na een periode van betrekkelijke rust Willem van
| der
| > Marck, gesteund door Lodewijk XI, met zijn troepen Luik aanviel,
sneuvelde
| > bisschop Lodewijk.
| >
| > From the book "Mannen met macht. Edellieden en de Moderne Staat in de
| > Bourgondisch-Habsburgse landen (1475-1530)" from Hans Cools (Walburg
Pers,
| > 2001), that contains biographies on a lot of Dutch noblemen from said
| > period, I read: "L. (read: Lodewijk) werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord
| door
| > soldaten van Willem van der Mark (page 163)." However, later in the book
| it
| > reads "Lodewijk werd op 30 augustus 1482 vermoord door Willem van der
Mark
| > en zijn trawanten" (page 314)
| >
| > The book from Hans Cools has some references to other Works, like P.
| Harsin.
| > La principauté de Liège a la fin du règne de Louis de Bourbon et sous
| celui
| > de Jean de Hornes. 1477-1505 (Etudes critiques sur l'histoire de la
| > Principauté de Liège. 1477-1495. I). Liege, 1957. I do not have access
to
| > these works.
| >
| > So, for everybody who doesn't speak Dutch, this seems to be the case:
| > - Louis was not beloved because he favoured his brother-in-law Charles,
| the
| > Duke of Burgundy, while the people of Liege favoured the King of France
| > instead. Furthermore he lived his life in too much wealth (in the eyes
of
| > the people of Liege)
| > - Willem van der Mark was involved in the death of Louis de Bourbon.
Louis
| > was killed by Willem's soldiers, Willem might have been present when
that
| > happened.
| >
| > Willem Nabuurs
| >
| >
| > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
| > Van: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
| > Verzonden: zondag 8 mei 2005 6:19
| > Aan: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| > Onderwerp: Swines revisited - was Swines of the Ardennes
| >
| >
| > I think Patrick Henin is confusing two brothers. Everard and his brother
| > Willem (Guillaume/Wilhelm) were both known as Eber der Ardennen. But
| Everard
| > lived on till 19 June 1496, and it was Willem who was beheaded in
| Maastricht
| > on 18 June 1485.
| > Which brother (or both ?) was involved with the assassination of Louis
de
| > Bourbon?
| >
| > I would like to learn more about this as it is a very interesting story.
| Why
| > was Louis de Bourbon not loved by his people? He was elected/appointed
| > Bishop of Liege, but he was not a priest as yet. His sister married the
| Duke
| > of Gelre and he met the sister of that Duke, they fell in love, married
| and
| > had children. In the mean time he was still Bishop of Liege.
| >
| > Was he resented because of his marriage? I read somewhere he was killed
in
| > battle against the people of Liege. But was he murdered instead?
| >
| > In the long run, it was established that the marriage was legitimate but
| as
| > he had not obtained permission from the king the children were not
| eligible
| > to inherit the French crown. This line of the Bourbon family is still
very
| > much in existance today.
| >
| > Can anyone tell how Louis de Bourbon died? Murdered or in battle?
| >
| > Many thanks
| > Leo van de Pas
| > Canberra, Australia
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
|