mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

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Paul K Davis

mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 02 mai 2005 07:22:35

If there has been discussion here of the evidence concerning the mother of
Vsevolod, called "Big Nest", I have failed to find it.

I see in one message from Vadim Verenich on 8 Apr 2003, and in a web site,
I believe by Rafal Prinke, the statement that she was Helena Komnena,
daughter of Isaak Komnenos, sebastokrator, and Kata-Irene of Georgia.

Can anyone comment on the evidence and lines of reasoning?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Kelsey Williams

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 02 mai 2005 23:02:43

Hello,

I can't comment on this line with any claim to expertise but I can
provide extracts from the relevant secondary literature available to
me.

In Baumgarten's "Genealogies et Mariages Occidentaux des Rurikides
Russes du Xe au XIIIe Siecle" (in _Orientalia Christiana_ 9:1 [May
1927]), p. 27, it is stated that "Georges aux Longues Mains" (i.e.,
Yuri Dolgoruki)'s second wife was "N. (Helene?) probablement d'origine
Byzantine + 1183." The documentation for this is given on p. 25 as
"Karamzine II note 405."

On table 135 of ES II Yuri's second wife is only given as "Griechin +
1183" but on table 175 a daughter is given to Isaakios Komnenos,
caesar, sebastokrator, &c. (d. aft. 1152), by his unknown wife (ES is
not aware of Kata), named "Helene Komnene" who "+(1183); (oo Jurij I
Wladimirowitsch Dolgorukij Fst von Rostov u Suzdal GFst v Kiew +
15.V.1158)." As I understand it, parentheses are generally used by the
ES to indicate some degree of uncertainty. Unfortunately, the
irritating citation style in the ES makes it quite impossible to tell
what the authority for this statement is.

"Karamzine" is, I suspect, almost certainly Nikolai Mikhailovich
Karamzin (1766-1826) and the work in question is probably his history
of Russia to 1606 which has been translated into French as _Histoire de
l'Empire de Russie_, 11 vols. (Paris: A. Belin, 1819-1826). With any
luck the numbering of the footnotes ought to be the same in the Russian
& French editions.

Probably the easiest way to find the ultimate authority for this
marriage, though, would be to contact Rafal Prinke (if you do, I'd be
most interested in learning what he has to say about it).

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

"Paul K Davis" wrote:
If there has been discussion here of the evidence concerning the
mother of
Vsevolod, called "Big Nest", I have failed to find it.

I see in one message from Vadim Verenich on 8 Apr 2003, and in a web
site,
I believe by Rafal Prinke, the statement that she was Helena Komnena,
daughter of Isaak Komnenos, sebastokrator, and Kata-Irene of Georgia.

Can anyone comment on the evidence and lines of reasoning?

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]

Kelsey Williams

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 02 mai 2005 23:06:35

I forgot to mention in my previous post that, assuming that Helene's
mother was Kata and that she herself was the mother of Vsevolod, most
of the western European nobility would descent from Khusrow II Parviz
of Persia (r. 590-627) and his numerous ancestors via Georgia, Armenia
and the Siunik princes.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Paul K Davis

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 03 mai 2005 05:28:32

Thanks, Kelsey, for both of your responses. Below is why I'm interested in
the question.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Kelsey Williams <gkkwilliams@cowboy.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/2/2005 3:14:55 PM
Subject: Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

I forgot to mention in my previous post that, assuming that Helene's
mother was Kata and that she herself was the mother of Vsevolod, most
of the western European nobility would descent from Khusrow II Parviz
of Persia (r. 590-627) and his numerous ancestors via Georgia, Armenia
and the Siunik princes.

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Don Stone

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Don Stone » 03 mai 2005 18:40:45

Paul K Davis wrote:
If there has been discussion here of the evidence concerning the mother of
Vsevolod, called "Big Nest", I have failed to find it.

I see in one message from Vadim Verenich on 8 Apr 2003, and in a web site,
I believe by Rafal Prinke, the statement that she was Helena Komnena,
daughter of Isaak Komnenos, sebastokrator, and Kata-Irene of Georgia.

Can anyone comment on the evidence and lines of reasoning?

Rafal wrote an article (in Polish) with the proposal that Kata-Irena,
daughter of Dawid II/IV (the Builder) of Georgia, was the wife of Isaac
Komnen and mother of the emperor Andronik I Komnen and his sister Helena
Komnena, wife of Jerzy/Yuri I Dolgoruki. This article was published in
electronic form in:
Adam Bieniaszewski & Rafał T. Prinke (eds.), Nuntius vetustatis. Prace
ofiarowane Profesorowi Jerzemu Wisłockiemu, 1998,
http://www.bkpan.poznan.pl/JW70/oklad.htm [unfortunately, this link now
gives a "Page not found" message].

Rafal circulated a draft English translation of this article to several
people. It had the title "The Bridge in the East: Genealogical links of
Rurikids and Komnenoi with Bagratids." The main feedback that Rafal got on
this was that the case he made for Kata as the mother of Andronicus was
convincing but that the claim (by Sturdza, etc.) that Helena Komnena was
sister of Andronicus and mother of Vsievolod III the Great Nest would
benefit from more direct references to source material. Rafal agreed,
though his article did supply a quote from K'art'lis Tskhovreba which he
interpreted as supporting the latter claim:

And there came once before him [king George III of Georgia] Andronikos
Komnenos with a wife of dazzling countenance and with beautiful children and
sister’s sons, father’s brother’s son of the great Manuel caesar and king of
all the Occident and Greece.

I'm sure Rafal would be glad to send you a copy of this article.

-- Don Stone

Kelsey Williams

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 03 mai 2005 23:44:00

I don't see how the quote from the _Georgian Chronicle_ could
necessarily support the Russian connection. According to ES II: 175
Andronikos also had sisters Maria (m. to Ioseph Bryennios Monomachos),
Anna (m. to Ioannes Arbantenos) and Eudokia (m. to Konstantinos
Palaiologos Doukas Komnenos). Surely the sister's sons referred to
could just have easily have been their children? Or am I missing
something?

Don Stone

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Don Stone » 04 mai 2005 06:51:44

Kelsey Williams wrote:
I don't see how the quote from the _Georgian Chronicle_ could
necessarily support the Russian connection. According to ES II: 175
Andronikos also had sisters Maria (m. to Ioseph Bryennios Monomachos),
Anna (m. to Ioannes Arbantenos) and Eudokia (m. to Konstantinos
Palaiologos Doukas Komnenos). Surely the sister's sons referred to
could just have easily have been their children? Or am I missing
something?

Yes, the sister's sons could have been sons of other sisters; I don't know
the historical details well enough to know whether the other sisters are
equally plausible. Rafal points out that Helena makes a particularly good
fit because she had only two sons and no daughters. And Rafal was
contrasting his straight-forward literal interpretation of the "beautiful
children and sister's sons" passage with that of Toumanoff, who felt that
the passage should be read "with beautiful children [who were also King
George's] sister's sons" and is indicating that Andronicus's first wife was
a sister of King George.

Why don't you write to Rafal for a copy of the article? His address as of
about a year ago was rafalp@amu.edu.pl.

-- Don Stone

Kelsey Williams

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Kelsey Williams » 04 mai 2005 16:53:02

I e-mailed him yesterday and will, hopefully, soon receive a response.

Kelsey

Stewart Baldwin

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 08 mai 2005 21:31:12

On 2 May 2005 15:06:35 -0700, "Kelsey Williams"
<gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote:

I forgot to mention in my previous post that, assuming that Helene's
mother was Kata and that she herself was the mother of Vsevolod, most
of the western European nobility would descent from Khusrow II Parviz
of Persia (r. 590-627) and his numerous ancestors via Georgia, Armenia
and the Siunik princes.

Should the above statement not be qualified by adding that such a line
of descent from Khusrow would be poorly documented and/or conjectural
on a number of the intervening links?

Stewart Baldwin

Paul K Davis

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 09 mai 2005 00:08:38

I know of these uncertainties in the connection of Kata to Khusrow:

The parentage of Khouschousch: I have also seen her name as Khoschousch,
Khoushoush and Xosus. There appears to be good evidence she was married to
Sennacherib-John of Vaspurakan before any of his children were born, and
that she was his widow, so I am convinced she was the mother of his
children, including Mary/Mariam/Maria from whom Kata descends. However, I
only know of a modern source indicative of her parentage, which says she
was sister of Ashot, who challenged his brother Yovhannes for the kingship
of Armenia. If this claim is true, and means full-sister, then she was
daughter of Katramite (Katradineh, Catramide, Catherine) of Siunia, the
wife of Gagik I of Armenia. I would like to know the medieval source from
which this claim derives. If true, the chronology is a bit tight as well,
implying Khoushoush married young and was born when her parents were young.

The ancestry of Vasak: The descent of Khouschousch's ancestor, Vasak II of
Siunia, from Grigor of Siunia, whose wife was a daughter of Khosrow II
Parviz, Sasanid king of Persia, is quite reasonable, and Toumanoff provides
a proper number of intermediaries, but he indicates probability, rather
than certainty, with each specific link here. I have not seen this work of
Toumanoff myself, only read reports here at gen-med. I don't know
Toumanoff's sources, and his further ancestry of Grigor has been critized,
thus perhaps casting doubt on this connecting line as well.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 5/8/2005 1:37:18 PM
Subject: Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

On 2 May 2005 15:06:35 -0700, "Kelsey Williams"
gkkwilliams@cowboy.net> wrote:

I forgot to mention in my previous post that, assuming that Helene's
mother was Kata and that she herself was the mother of Vsevolod, most
of the western European nobility would descent from Khusrow II Parviz
of Persia (r. 590-627) and his numerous ancestors via Georgia, Armenia
and the Siunik princes.

Should the above statement not be qualified by adding that such a line
of descent from Khusrow would be poorly documented and/or conjectural
on a number of the intervening links?

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: mother of Vsevolod "Big Nest"

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 10 mai 2005 01:31:28

On Sun, 8 May 2005 21:37:19 +0000 (UTC), pkd-gm@earthlink.net ("Paul K
Davis") wrote:

The ancestry of Vasak: The descent of Khouschousch's ancestor, Vasak II of
Siunia, from Grigor of Siunia, whose wife was a daughter of Khosrow II
Parviz, Sasanid king of Persia, is quite reasonable, and Toumanoff provides
a proper number of intermediaries, but he indicates probability, rather
than certainty, with each specific link here. I have not seen this work of
Toumanoff myself, only read reports here at gen-med. I don't know
Toumanoff's sources, and his further ancestry of Grigor has been critized,
thus perhaps casting doubt on this connecting line as well.

If the line is based largely on the work of Toumanoff, then that would
be a good reason to be skeptical. Toumanoff was a sloppy genealogist,
whose genealogical statements should not be accepted without checking
the primary sources (if you can figure out what they were, since his
work is also often poorly documented).

Stewart Baldwin

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