Wycliffe

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Wycliffe

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 apr 2005 17:07:13

The article "The Ancestry of the Royally-Descended Mansfields of the
Massachusetts Bay" by Robert C. Anderson, John C. Brandon, and Paul
C. Reed NEHGR 155 (2001): 3-35, shows that the Mansfields are descended
from Anne Eure, daughter of Sir Ralph Eure and Margery Bowes. Following
on, Margery is the daughter of Sir Ralph Bowes and Elizabeth Clifford;
he the son of Sir Ralph Bowes and Margery Conyers; she the daughter of
Richard Conyers and Anne Wycliffe; she the daughter of John Wycliffe
and Anne Rokeby. John seems to be the son of Sir William Wycliffe. This
information is from "Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and
1564" by William Flower, ed. Charles B. Norcliffe (London, 1881).

My question is how is John and Sir William Wycliffe related to John
Wycliffe, the Oxford don, theologian and translator of the Bible who
lived 1320-1384. This man was from Yorkshire as are the Wycliffes
mentioned above. Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, but probably an uncle or cousin of the above
Wycliffes.

Any help on this would be appreciated. This line is not only ancestral
to me but to many others including the present day royal family (The
Bowes family becomes the Bowes-Lyons family and begets the late Queen
Mother, born Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon).

John Steele Gordon

Re: Wycliffe

Legg inn av John Steele Gordon » 30 apr 2005 19:10:51

<mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1114877233.134231.143220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

. . . Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, . . .

As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

The good monk didn't pay excessive heed to his vow of poverty either,
leaving his five bastard sons comfortably well off.

JSG

Nathaniel Taylor

descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 30 apr 2005 19:31:55

In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1114877233.134231.143220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

. . . Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, . . .

As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

The good monk didn't pay excessive heed to his vow of poverty either,
leaving his five bastard sons comfortably well off.

Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

I remember seeing it said that the last Catholic bishop of Iceland
(would this be 16th c.?) is an ancestor of every living Icelander
(those, at least, with Icelandic descent). Did he have a large bastard
descendancy? Or was he simply married?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 30 apr 2005 19:37:34

In article
<nathanieltaylor-CE0CCD.14342830042005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:

I remember seeing it said that the last Catholic bishop of Iceland
(would this be 16th c.?) is an ancestor of every living Icelander
(those, at least, with Icelandic descent). Did he have a large bastard
descendancy? Or was he simply married?

Well, we've been around this before, I see. Leo's post of 7 Oct 1999 is
helpful:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0939298392

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

John Steele Gordon

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av John Steele Gordon » 30 apr 2005 20:53:36

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-CE0CCD.14342830042005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:


Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

Donald Campbell never quite got his bishopric, being nominated by King James
V in 1559 to be Bishop of Brechin, but the pope, doubting his faithfulness
to the Holy See, refused to accept him. The Pope was right--the next year he
attended the Convention of Estates that ended the authority of the Pope in
Scotland and forbade the mass.

But he was the great grandfather of Alexander Magruder, immigrant to
Maryland, and thus has a huge American descendancy.

JSG

Gjest

Re: Wycliffe

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 apr 2005 21:23:42

In a message dated 4/30/2005 11:15:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ancestry@optonline.net writes:


As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

And if you believe certain medieval tales, a vow of celibacy was the best way
to get the ladies alone without their husbands suspecting you.

Will Johnson

Chris Dickinson

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 30 apr 2005 22:06:59

Nat Taylor wrote:

In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1114877233.134231.143220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

. . . Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, . . .

As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

The good monk didn't pay excessive heed to his vow of poverty either,
leaving his five bastard sons comfortably well off.

Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

I remember seeing it said that the last Catholic bishop of Iceland
(would this be 16th c.?) is an ancestor of every living Icelander
(those, at least, with Icelandic descent). Did he have a large bastard
descendancy? Or was he simply married?


One should never forget that Catholic clergy, like Ottoman castrated slaves,
have lives before the life change.

Children can be produced before decisions are made, vows are taken and
bridges burnt. Never jump to conclusions about bastardy!

Chris

Leo van de Pas

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 apr 2005 23:38:30

The murdered Cardinal David Beaton, Archbishop of St.Andrews in Scotland has
many descendants.

I found only one Gateway Ancestor, Lady Christina Stewart

also descended are the late Queen Mother, Howard Dean, Prince Rainier of
Monaco,
Rachel Ward, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Sir Winston Churchill and
Hugh Grant.

In Spain there are also a few princes of the Church who are ancestors..
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)


In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1114877233.134231.143220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

. . . Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, . . .

As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of
Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

The good monk didn't pay excessive heed to his vow of poverty either,
leaving his five bastard sons comfortably well off.

Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

I remember seeing it said that the last Catholic bishop of Iceland
(would this be 16th c.?) is an ancestor of every living Icelander
(those, at least, with Icelandic descent). Did he have a large bastard
descendancy? Or was he simply married?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/


Leo van de Pas

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 apr 2005 23:55:48

Of course, I forgot in the category there are several popes who themselves
are ancestors, to name one Pope Alexander VI but there are several more.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)


The murdered Cardinal David Beaton, Archbishop of St.Andrews in Scotland
has
many descendants.

I found only one Gateway Ancestor, Lady Christina Stewart

also descended are the late Queen Mother, Howard Dean, Prince Rainier of
Monaco,
Rachel Ward, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Sir Winston Churchill and
Hugh Grant.

In Spain there are also a few princes of the Church who are ancestors..
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)


In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

mhollick@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1114877233.134231.143220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

. . . Since John was a cleric, he was not married and cannot
be a lineal ancestor, . . .

As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of
Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of celibacy
is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

The good monk didn't pay excessive heed to his vow of poverty either,
leaving his five bastard sons comfortably well off.

Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

I remember seeing it said that the last Catholic bishop of Iceland
(would this be 16th c.?) is an ancestor of every living Icelander
(those, at least, with Icelandic descent). Did he have a large bastard
descendancy? Or was he simply married?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/




Nathaniel Taylor

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 01 mai 2005 01:11:46

In article <0nRce.2356$FE3.2029@fe12.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-CE0CCD.14342830042005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
In article <HSPce.2232$Hf6.1805@fe11.lga>,
"John Steele Gordon" <ancestry@optonline.net> wrote:

Who are some later medieval bishops in the usual constellation of
medieval ancestors of modern people? Henry Beaufort, cardinal bishop of
Winchester, MAY be one (as we've seen ad nauseam). Are there others,
with perhaps a wider descendancy? I know there are a couple in the
Spanish ancestor collection, from the 13th century at least.

Donald Campbell never quite got his bishopric, being nominated by King James
V in 1559 to be Bishop of Brechin, but the pope, doubting his faithfulness
to the Holy See, refused to accept him. The Pope was right--the next year he
attended the Convention of Estates that ended the authority of the Pope in
Scotland and forbade the mass.

But he was the great grandfather of Alexander Magruder, immigrant to
Maryland, and thus has a huge American descendancy.

Indeed; I'm one of this huge descendancy, and I believe that this Donald
Campbell is my most recent identified supposed-to-have-been-celibate
ancestor. Another such figure in my own ancestry is Nuno, bishop of
Astorga from 1226 to 1241, whose stated daughter Elvira Nunez was wife
to Alvar Rodriguez Osorio and ancestral to Sancha de Ayala.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Wycliffe

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 mai 2005 06:10:44

Of course, the convents might have served a similar purpose for the
ladies.




WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 4/30/2005 11:15:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ancestry@optonline.net writes:


As a lineal descendant of Donald Campbell (c. 1500-1562), Abbott of
Cupar
and nominated bishop of Brechin, I can testify that a vow of
celibacy is
less than a guaranteed method of birth control.

And if you believe certain medieval tales, a vow of celibacy was the
best way
to get the ladies alone without their husbands suspecting you.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2005 13:13:42

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:55:48 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de
Pas") wrote:

Of course, I forgot in the category there are several popes who themselves
are ancestors, to name one Pope Alexander VI but there are several more.

Felix V (d. 1451) was a widower with children who had retired to a monastery
when he was elected Pope by the [schismatic] Council of Basel in 1439. He
resigned his shadow papacy in 1449, and is the last generally recognized
Antipope. Many people living today can show legitimate descents from him.

Peter Stewart

Re: descents from medieval clergy (was Re: Wycliffe)

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 mai 2005 13:38:36

<WmAddams@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vr5c71hniksaq3oanrhtgiq9l5ub70tq7m@4ax.com...
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:55:48 +0000 (UTC), leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ("Leo
van de
Pas") wrote:

Of course, I forgot in the category there are several popes who themselves
are ancestors, to name one Pope Alexander VI but there are several more.

Felix V (d. 1451) was a widower with children who had retired to a
monastery
when he was elected Pope by the [schismatic] Council of Basel in 1439. He
resigned his shadow papacy in 1449, and is the last generally recognized
Antipope. Many people living today can show legitimate descents from him.

I think he was the last layman to be elected pope (the cardinals don't have
to choose one of their own), even though this is not recognised by the
Church. Although never bishop of Rome, Count Amadeo of Savoy (aka Felix V)
was later appointed a cardinal.

Peter Stewart

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»