Burley-Grey Connection

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Patti Metsch

Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Patti Metsch » 30 apr 2005 07:03:07

Dear List:

I am aware there have been previous posts to the list concerning the supposed Burley-Grey connection and I thought I would throw this in:

"John Burley (d. c.1415) [held the manor of Brockton] by 1397. Burley's son William was in possession by 1428. After William's death without sons in 1458 the manor was held for life by Margaret Walwen, related to his brother-in-law Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton. At Margaret's death in 1491 it was divided between Edward Trussell, grandson and heir of William's daughter Elizabeth, and Joan Lyttleton, William's other daughter."

From: "Shipton," in "A History of the County of Shropshire: Volume X: Munslow Hundred (part)," The Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp. 368-80. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22885

From this, it appears as if 1) William Burley had a WIFE who was a Grey; or 2) he had a SISTER who was married to Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton; or, 3) while I don't feel in this instance the use of the term "brother-in-law" would signify a stepbrother, given the suggest that William's father John Burley's wife was possibly a Grey, I guess it can't be ruled out. In fact, way back in 1997 Kay Allen asked: "Was Julian [William Burley's] step-mother?" Kay, are you out there?

As for #1, there seems to be adequate evidence that William Burley's wives were Ellen Grendon, d/o John Grendon and Margaret (Walwen? mentioned above?), who survived him. Is it possible he could have been married three times?

Can anyone provide any evidence to rule out any of the three possibilities mentioned above?

Patti Metsch

mdelanow

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av mdelanow » 30 apr 2005 20:46:20

The copy of The Visitation of Shropshire I have here by Robert Trefell
and Augustine Vincent, deputies to William Camden,1623, and the
Visitation of 1584 taken by Robert Lee, deputy to Robert Cooke has Sir.
John Burley,[the son of Sir. John Burley and Alice Pembridg ,daughter
of Richard and sister of Walter,] as being married to Alice da to
Richard Lord Grey of Wilton.
This pedigree only shows 2 daughters as issure of that marriage and
they noted to be co-heirs to their father.

The 2 daughters are shown to be Johanna who married Thomas Littleton
and Elizabeth who married Sir. John Hopton and 2nd to John Tryffell.

MDW

Kay Allen

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 02 mai 2005 00:20:22

This pedigree is not worth the paper on which it is
printed.

There are two entirely separate Burley families.

K

--- mdelanow <mdelanow@msn.com> wrote:

The copy of The Visitation of Shropshire I have
here by Robert Trefell
and Augustine Vincent, deputies to William
Camden,1623, and the
Visitation of 1584 taken by Robert Lee, deputy to
Robert Cooke has Sir.
John Burley,[the son of Sir. John Burley and Alice
Pembridg ,daughter
of Richard and sister of Walter,] as being married
to Alice da to
Richard Lord Grey of Wilton.
This pedigree only shows 2 daughters as issure of
that marriage and
they noted to be co-heirs to their father.

The 2 daughters are shown to be Johanna who married
Thomas Littleton
and Elizabeth who married Sir. John Hopton and 2nd
to John Tryffell.

MDW


Kay Allen

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 02 mai 2005 00:27:45

Dear Patti,

I am here for a moment.

Margaret's IPM says her heir was a Grey de Wilton, so
I assume she was a Grey by birth. Walwen was probably
a marriage after William's death.

I think Julian was William's mother.

K

--- Patti Metsch <pmetsch@cox.net> wrote:

Dear List:

I am aware there have been previous posts to the
list concerning the supposed Burley-Grey connection
and I thought I would throw this in:

"John Burley (d. c.1415) [held the manor of
Brockton] by 1397. Burley's son William was in
possession by 1428. After William's death without
sons in 1458 the manor was held for life by Margaret
Walwen, related to his brother-in-law Reynold, Lord
Grey of Wilton. At Margaret's death in 1491 it was
divided between Edward Trussell, grandson and heir
of William's daughter Elizabeth, and Joan Lyttleton,
William's other daughter."

From: "Shipton," in "A History of the County of
Shropshire: Volume X: Munslow Hundred (part)," The
Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp. 368-80.
URL:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22885


From this, it appears as if 1) William Burley had a
WIFE who was a Grey; or 2) he had a SISTER who was
married to Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton; or, 3)
while I don't feel in this instance the use of the
term "brother-in-law" would signify a stepbrother,
given the suggest that William's father John
Burley's wife was possibly a Grey, I guess it can't
be ruled out. In fact, way back in 1997 Kay Allen
asked: "Was Julian [William Burley's] step-mother?"
Kay, are you out there?

As for #1, there seems to be adequate evidence that
William Burley's wives were Ellen Grendon, d/o John
Grendon and Margaret (Walwen? mentioned above?), who
survived him. Is it possible he could have been
married three times?

Can anyone provide any evidence to rule out any of
the three possibilities mentioned above?

Patti Metsch


Patti Metsch

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Patti Metsch » 23 jul 2005 17:23:01

Perhaps Roskell et al in _The History of Parliament: The House of Commons_
(p. 434) says it best:

"Whether there is any truth in the statement that Burley himself married a
daughter of Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton, may not now be discovered..." But
it seems doubtful.

As for Burley's second wife Margaret, there are some UNSOURCED websites
which list the wife of Richard Walwyn as Margaret Grey, daughter of Margaret
Ferrers and Richard Grey; this would make her the half-sister of
Reginald/Reynold de Grey (according to these same sites) and thusly, Burley
would indeed have been "brother-in-law" to Reginald/Reynold de Grey. As Kay
Allen has posted previously, Margaret Walwyn's IMP lists her heir as a Grey
which seems to indicate she was a Grey by birth.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don McArthur" <donmac@netactive.co.za>
To: "'Patti Metsch'" <pmetsch@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:58 AM
Subject: RE: Burley-Grey Connection


I know this will no doubt have been dealt with already - I am as you can
see
well behind in ploughing through all these posts.

I have [unsourced unfortunately - a legacy of early naiveté ] Richard, 6th
Lord GREY had son Reginald, 7th Lord by first wife. M[2] 1427 Margaret
FERRERS having Alice who m Wm. BURLEY.

Can't help with the relationship of Mgt. WALWEN to Reginald GREY though.

Cheers,

Don McArthur.

-----Original Message-----
From: Patti Metsch [mailto:pmetsch@cox.net]
Sent: 30 April 2005 05:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Burley-Grey Connection


Dear List:

I am aware there have been previous posts to the list concerning the
supposed Burley-Grey connection and I thought I would throw this in:

"John Burley (d. c.1415) [held the manor of Brockton] by 1397. Burley's
son
William was in possession by 1428. After William's death without sons in
1458 the manor was held for life by Margaret Walwen, related to his
brother-in-law Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton. At Margaret's death in 1491
it
was divided between Edward Trussell, grandson and heir of William's
daughter
Elizabeth, and Joan Lyttleton, William's other daughter."

From: "Shipton," in "A History of the County of Shropshire: Volume X:
Munslow Hundred (part)," The Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp.
368-80. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22885

From this, it appears as if 1) William Burley had a WIFE who was a Grey;
or
2) he had a SISTER who was married to Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton; or, 3)
while I don't feel in this instance the use of the term "brother-in-law"
would signify a stepbrother, given the suggest that William's father John
Burley's wife was possibly a Grey, I guess it can't be ruled out. In fact,
way back in 1997 Kay Allen asked: "Was Julian [William Burley's]
step-mother?" Kay, are you out there?

As for #1, there seems to be adequate evidence that William Burley's wives
were Ellen Grendon, d/o John Grendon and Margaret (Walwen? mentioned
above?), who survived him. Is it possible he could have been married
three
times?

Can anyone provide any evidence to rule out any of the three possibilities
mentioned above?

Patti Metsch

______________________________


Gjest

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 jul 2005 10:40:25

Paget's 'Lineage & Ancestry...' has this Richard Walwyn and wife
Margaret Grey of Wilton (as ancestors via the Wriothesley Earls of
Southampton); but I don't know what his source was, either. However, if
this Margaret's heir was a Grey then it surely rules out a Walwyn son
for her, so the line is wrong anyway.

"Patti Metsch" wrote:
Perhaps Roskell et al in _The History of Parliament: The House of Commons_
(p. 434) says it best:

"Whether there is any truth in the statement that Burley himself married a
daughter of Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton, may not now be discovered..." But
it seems doubtful.

As for Burley's second wife Margaret, there are some UNSOURCED websites
which list the wife of Richard Walwyn as Margaret Grey, daughter of Margaret
Ferrers and Richard Grey; this would make her the half-sister of
Reginald/Reynold de Grey (according to these same sites) and thusly, Burley
would indeed have been "brother-in-law" to Reginald/Reynold de Grey. As Kay
Allen has posted previously, Margaret Walwyn's IMP lists her heir as a Grey
which seems to indicate she was a Grey by birth.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don McArthur" <donmac@netactive.co.za
To: "'Patti Metsch'" <pmetsch@cox.net
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:58 AM
Subject: RE: Burley-Grey Connection


I know this will no doubt have been dealt with already - I am as you can
see
well behind in ploughing through all these posts.

I have [unsourced unfortunately - a legacy of early naiveté ] Richard, 6th
Lord GREY had son Reginald, 7th Lord by first wife. M[2] 1427 Margaret
FERRERS having Alice who m Wm. BURLEY.

Can't help with the relationship of Mgt. WALWEN to Reginald GREY though.

Cheers,

Don McArthur.

-----Original Message-----
From: Patti Metsch [mailto:pmetsch@cox.net]
Sent: 30 April 2005 05:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Burley-Grey Connection


Dear List:

I am aware there have been previous posts to the list concerning the
supposed Burley-Grey connection and I thought I would throw this in:

"John Burley (d. c.1415) [held the manor of Brockton] by 1397. Burley's
son
William was in possession by 1428. After William's death without sons in
1458 the manor was held for life by Margaret Walwen, related to his
brother-in-law Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton. At Margaret's death in 1491
it
was divided between Edward Trussell, grandson and heir of William's
daughter
Elizabeth, and Joan Lyttleton, William's other daughter."

From: "Shipton," in "A History of the County of Shropshire: Volume X:
Munslow Hundred (part)," The Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp.
368-80. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=22885

From this, it appears as if 1) William Burley had a WIFE who was a Grey;
or
2) he had a SISTER who was married to Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton; or, 3)
while I don't feel in this instance the use of the term "brother-in-law"
would signify a stepbrother, given the suggest that William's father John
Burley's wife was possibly a Grey, I guess it can't be ruled out. In fact,
way back in 1997 Kay Allen asked: "Was Julian [William Burley's]
step-mother?" Kay, are you out there?

As for #1, there seems to be adequate evidence that William Burley's wives
were Ellen Grendon, d/o John Grendon and Margaret (Walwen? mentioned
above?), who survived him. Is it possible he could have been married
three
times?

Can anyone provide any evidence to rule out any of the three possibilities
mentioned above?

Patti Metsch

______________________________


Patti Metsch

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Patti Metsch » 28 jul 2005 17:27:01

<mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Paget's 'Lineage & Ancestry...' has this Richard Walwyn and wife
Margaret Grey of Wilton (as ancestors via the Wriothesley Earls of
Southampton); but I don't know what his source was, either. However, if
this Margaret's heir was a Grey then it surely rules out a Walwyn son
for her, so the line is wrong anyway.

Thanks for this source -

Of course, I really should have pointed out that I don't know positively
that Richard Walwyn's wife Margaret was the same "Margaret Walwyn" who after
William Burley's death held the Manor of Brockton for life, presumably as
his widow. (See "Shipton," in "A History of the County of Shropshire: Volume
X: Munslow Hundred (part)," The Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp.
368-80. <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22885>). It is
quite odd that the VCH entry states Margaret was "related to [William
Burley's] brother-in-law Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton" rather than saying
she was Reynold's half-sister; it also seems to suggest Burley had been
brother-in-law to Grey independent of his marriage to Margaret. Of course,
as we have been discussing, there is no evidence (other than the dubious
Visitations) to show that he had been married to any other member of the
Grey family.

Patti

Gjest

Re: Burley-Grey Connection

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 17:34:32

I think the VCH index does call Margaret Walwen 'widow of Richard'
although it isn't mentioned in the main body of the text. Whether the
statements made are based on anything more than visitations, is another
matter. One of the few hard facts does seem to be that Margaret was
related to the Grey family, if one of them was her heir; maybe the rest
of the conjectured pedigree was extrapolated from that- I haven't seen
her IPM so don't know if it contains any other information, ie how she
was related to her Grey heir. 'Related to his [Burley's]
brother-in-law' doesn't preclude the interpretation 'wife', but it's
obviously not what they had in mind! It looks like they accepted the
visitation version and then tried to reconcile it with reality, causing
this convolution. A life interest would certainly seem to suggest that
she was Burley's widow.

Matthew

"Patti Metsch" wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Paget's 'Lineage & Ancestry...' has this Richard Walwyn and wife
Margaret Grey of Wilton (as ancestors via the Wriothesley Earls of
Southampton); but I don't know what his source was, either. However, if
this Margaret's heir was a Grey then it surely rules out a Walwyn son
for her, so the line is wrong anyway.

Thanks for this source -

Of course, I really should have pointed out that I don't know positively
that Richard Walwyn's wife Margaret was the same "Margaret Walwyn" who after
William Burley's death held the Manor of Brockton for life, presumably as
his widow. (See "Shipton," in "A History of the County of Shropshire: Volume
X: Munslow Hundred (part)," The Liberty and Borough of Wenlock (1998), pp.
368-80. <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22885>). It is
quite odd that the VCH entry states Margaret was "related to [William
Burley's] brother-in-law Reynold, Lord Grey of Wilton" rather than saying
she was Reynold's half-sister; it also seems to suggest Burley had been
brother-in-law to Grey independent of his marriage to Margaret. Of course,
as we have been discussing, there is no evidence (other than the dubious
Visitations) to show that he had been married to any other member of the
Grey family.

Patti

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