Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

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John P. DuLong

Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 27 apr 2005 14:14:49

Catherine Baillon’s Descent from Frederick Barbarossa through the Grimaldis

Catherine Baillon is fortunate to have two descents from the Grimaldis,
see René Jetté, John Patrick DuLong, Roland-Yves Gagné, Gail F.
Moreau-DesHarnais, and Joseph A. Dubé, _Table d’ascendance de Catherine
Baillon, 12 générations_ (Montréal: Société généalogique
canadienne-française, 2001, http://www.sgcf.com/baillon.php for order
information). In the twelfth generation she is noted as having (1)
Barnabo Grimaldi de Beuil (Boglio) and (2) Rainier I Grimaldi, seigneur
of Monaco among her ancestry.

But what is the relationship between Barnabo and Rainier Grimaldi and
does either of them descend from Frederick I Barbarossa, Emperor of the
Holy Roman Empire?

How are Barnabo and Rainier Grimaldi Related?

Based on Battilana and the Grimaldi.org web site
(http://www.grimaldi.org/en/history/default.asp), they are related as
follows:

Grimaldo Grimaldi
Member of the Council of Genoa
|_________________________
| |
Luchetto Grimaldi Lanfranco Grimaldi
Admiral of the Fleet Ambassador of Genoa
| |
Barnabo Grimaldi Rainier I Grimaldi
m. N. Tiburge Admiral of France
| m. Marguerite Ruffo/Ruffa
| |
Andaro Grimaldi Antoine Grimaldi
m. Astruge de Beuil m. Catherine Doria

This would make them first cousins. This lineage would conform to where
we left off in our Baillon book.

However, other sources, including Leo van de Pas’s Genealogics, see
http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php? ... 8&tree=LEO, cuts
out Barnabo completely and would present the following:

Grimaldo Grimaldi
Member of the Council of Genoa
m. Oriette de Castro
|
Lanfranco Grimaldi
m. Aurelie del Caretto
|_________________________
| |
Andaro Grimaldi Rainier I Grimaldi
m. Astruge de Beuil Admiral of France
m. Marguerite Ruffo/Ruffa

I have insufficient original evidence at home to verify either lineage,
however, the lineage found in Natale Battilana’s _ Genealogie delle
famiglie nobili di Genova_, 3 vols. in 1, (Bologna: Forni Editore,
1971), backs up what we presented in the Catherine Baillon ancestry.
Curiously, Van de Pas cites this same source. I do have this in front
of me and it shows on p. 3 of the Grimaldi article that there is a
Barnaba Grimaldi the son of Lucchetto Grimaldi and grandson of Grimaldo
Grimaldi while on p. 4 shows a Rainero Grimaldi the son of Lanfranco
Grimaldi and, on p. 3, grandson of Grimaldo Grimaldi.

Although we did not cite Battilana in our Baillon book, I know that the
late René Jetté and my other co-authors were aware of this book because
I had gotten it through interlibrary loan and made photocopies of it for
René, if not the other co-authors. I recall René referring to Battilana
in our email exchanges regarding Baillon’s Franco-Italian ancestry.
However, we did not cite the book because the generations it supports
are beyond the twelve that we documented.

Does Catherine Baillon Descend from Frederick Barbarossa?

If it is indeed the case that Barnabo and Rainier were cousins and only
the latter descends from Lanfranco Grimaldi, and if the other data Van
de Pas presents on the wife of Lanfranco and her ancestors is correct,
then Catherine Baillon would descend from Frederick Barbarossa only
through Rainier Grimaldi.

The proposed descent would be as follows:

Frederick I Barbarossa
Emperor, Holy Roman Empire
m. Beatrice de Bourgogne
|
Henry VI
Emperor, Holy Roman Empire
m. Costanza of Sicily
|
Frederick II
Emperor, Holy Roman Empire
m. N.
|
Caterina de Marano
m. Marquis Gaicomo di Caretto
|
Aurelia del Caretto
m. Lanfranco Grimaldi
|
Rainier I Grimaldi
m. Marguerite Ruffo/Ruffa
|
Antoine Grimaldi
m. Catherine Doria
|
Luc Grimaldi d’Antibes
m. Yolande Grimaldi
|
Madeline Grimaldi
m. Rainier Lascaris de Vintimille
|
Charles Lascaris de Vintimille
m. Jeannette Liti
|
Baptisine Lascaris de Vintimille
m. Pierre Chabaud
|
Jean Chabaud
m. Louise de Berre
|
Antoine Chabaud / Chabot
m. Catherine Lombart / Lombard
|
Marguerite Chabot
m. Jean Bizet
|
Anne Bizet
m. Mathurine de Marle
|
Louise de Marle
m. Alphonse Baillon
|
Catherine Baillon

This is not a lineage I was aware of before Gerard Poissonnier pointed
it out to me as a possibility. Moreover, I do not know if René Jetté
was aware of it. He never mentioned it to me, but I know that he, like
my other co-authors and myself, explored Catherine Baillon’s ancestry
beyond the 12 generations we published. I have not year heard back from
Fr. Joseph Dubé, but my other colleagues, Gail F. Moreau-DesHarnais and
Roland-Yves Gagné have no information about this lineage.

Does anyone have any information that would confirm or deny this
proposed lineage? Does the lineage from Rainier I Grimaldi to Frederick
Barbarossa hold up under scrutiny?

The fly in the ointment is that anything involving the medieval Grimaldi
family can be problematic. There is no well done thoroughly documented
genealogical study of the Graimaldis (please, if I am wrong here, then
correct me with a citation to such a work). Furthermore, it would take
a special scholar to read through all the original documents in Latin,
French, Italian, and Provençal. The end result is that we have to rely
on secondary sources that do not always cite primary sources. This can
lead to conflicting interpretations of the available evidence. For
example, we concluded that Antoine Grimaldi, the father of Luc Grimaldi,
the founder of the Grimaldi d’Antibes branch, was the son of Rainier I
Grimaldi (see pp. 147-148, n. 45). However, others have concluded that
Antoine Grimaldi was the son of Gaspare Grimaldi (see the Grimaldi.org
web site). We reviewed the available evidence, including the primary
documents published by Gustave Saige regarding the history of Monaco,
and concluded that Antoine is the son of Rainier. But keep in mind that
if our interpretation is wrong, then the above lineage back to Frederick
Barbarossa would be broken.

I want to thank Gerard Poissonnier for bringing this intriguing possible
lineage to my attention.

JP

JBunot

Re: Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av JBunot » 28 apr 2005 00:29:42

Dear John, please view this link :

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/delcarreto1.htm

According to it, Aurelia del Carretto (+ 1307) would have apparently
married twice, both times to Grimaldi : firstly to Lanfranco G., french
vicaire of Provence (+ 1295) (ancestor of the later seigneurs de Monaco)
and secondly Francesco G. (+ 1309), nicknamed "la Malice", (first seigneur
de Monaco by conquest disguised as a monk).

John P. DuLong

Re: Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 28 apr 2005 01:04:11

JBunot wrote:
Dear John, please view this link :

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/delcarreto1.htm

According to it, Aurelia del Carretto (+ 1307) would have apparently
married twice, both times to Grimaldi : firstly to Lanfranco G., french
vicaire of Provence (+ 1295) (ancestor of the later seigneurs de Monaco)
and secondly Francesco G. (+ 1309), nicknamed "la Malice", (first seigneur
de Monaco by conquest disguised as a monk).

I must confess that I am still very much a novice when it comes to
Italian research. However, as I have seen Lanfranco translated into
François, for example, in Père Anselme, I wonder if this web site is
confusing the issue by making two husbands out of one. Perhaps some one
out there can tell us if Lanfranco, Francesco, and François are all
basically the same name. Also, I wonder if this person was both the
first seigneur of Monaco and the French vicaire of Provence?

By the way, M. Bunot, I was very impressed with your posting back in
December 2004 regarding "Le Bouteiller (Baillon) new royal gateway." I
thought you did a very good job of laying out the political and social
context for Guy I Le Bouteiller and his probable uncle Roger, seigneur
de Breaute. I wonder if you have made any further progress proving that
they were indeed nephew and uncle. I truly believe that is the case,
but I would love to see more evidence.

JP

Gjest

Re: Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2005 11:15:04

In a message dated 28/04/2005 01:15:41 GMT Daylight Time,
dulongd@habitant.org writes:

Lanfranco,
I've come across the name Lanfranc, in France - this comes from the
germanic, land -frank, Land + Free - a particularly famous Lanfranc was Archbishop
Lanfranc. The name coudl have been adopted as a variant of Francesco, or even
the inverse.
Peter de Loriol

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 28 apr 2005 15:31:24

It is likely that Lanfranco and Franco/Francesco are
the same, cf. Branca Doria vs. Brancaleone Doria.

fa

--- "John P. DuLong" <dulongd@habitant.org> wrote:
JBunot wrote:
Dear John, please view this link :

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/delcarreto1.htm

According to it, Aurelia del Carretto (+ 1307)
would have apparently
married twice, both times to Grimaldi : firstly
to Lanfranco G., french
vicaire of Provence (+ 1295) (ancestor of the
later seigneurs de Monaco)
and secondly Francesco G. (+ 1309), nicknamed "la
Malice", (first seigneur
de Monaco by conquest disguised as a monk).

I must confess that I am still very much a novice
when it comes to
Italian research. However, as I have seen Lanfranco
translated into
François, for example, in Père Anselme, I wonder if
this web site is
confusing the issue by making two husbands out of
one. Perhaps some one
out there can tell us if Lanfranco, Francesco, and
François are all
basically the same name. Also, I wonder if this
person was both the
first seigneur of Monaco and the French vicaire of
Provence?

By the way, M. Bunot, I was very impressed with your
posting back in
December 2004 regarding "Le Bouteiller (Baillon) new
royal gateway." I
thought you did a very good job of laying out the
political and social
context for Guy I Le Bouteiller and his probable
uncle Roger, seigneur
de Breaute. I wonder if you have made any further
progress proving that
they were indeed nephew and uncle. I truly believe
that is the case,
but I would love to see more evidence.

JP







Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis.
Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/

Gjest

Re: Baillon Descent from Frederick Barbarossa via Grimaldis

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2005 01:00:28

Dear Newsgroup Members,
Like so many, I descend from Emperor
Frederick II " Stupor Mundi" which was latin for Wonder of the World rather
than a reference to his drinking habits. At any rate Frederick II loved Italy
and his father dying while He was still a boy, doubtless was a unholy hellion
to his servants especially. He was bright , no doubt about it. He inherited
Sicily from his mother Constance, daughter of Roger II, Count (later KIng) of
Sicily. It also was claimed in "Ripley`s believe it or not" that He thought
himself above opening doors and He would kick at it until someone did open it. One
day He was wandering through the halls of one of his castles and came upon a
closed door, which He proceeded to kick again and again. When They finally
discovered him, He had broken his foot gangrene set in and the foot had to be
amputated. If indeed true, that would have to make him the wisest fool in
christiandom, perhaps for all time. eclipsing both James I and his grandson Charles
II of England each of whom has been similarly referred to by that nickname.
According to Louda - MacLagen `s Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe.
Table 113 Holy Roman Empire (p 224) He married 3 times, 1st 1210 Constance,
daughter of King Alfonso II of Aragon d 1222, 2nd 1225 Yolande de Brienne, daughter
of King John of Jerusalem d 1228, 3rd 1235 Isabel, daughter of King John of
England b 1214-d 1241. He also had mistresses including Bianca Lancia (according
to Turton, p 36) mother of his bastard son Manfred b 1233- d 1266, whom
Frederick willed Sicily at his death in 1250. It is interesting that this favorite
son could have been legitimate if the Germanic marriage rules had been less
stringent. But Bianca was never given a wedding band.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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