Rhun Map Artgal

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Le Bateman

Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Le Bateman » 27 apr 2005 06:24:37

Did a daughter of Kenneth MacAlpin marry Rhun Map Artgal. King of
Strathclyde. What sources are there to prove this? Did Kenneth MacAlpin even
have any daughters? This supposed Princess was supposedly born in 818. Who
was King Artgal's mother?
Le

Paul K Davis

RE: Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 27 apr 2005 08:29:45

Bartrum (1974) v#1, p#21 (of the introductory material), page caption
"Strathclyde".

[ten generations]
|
Dyfnwal, d. 760
|
Owain
|
Rhydderch
|
Dyfnwal
|
Arthgal, d. 872 [2]
|
Rhun = NN d. Kenneth macAlpin K. of Scots, d. 860
|
Eochaid, K. of Scots, 878-889, K. of Strathclyde 889-?
|?
Land, d. Eochaid of Dalriada = Niall Glundub, High K. of Ireland 916-919

footnote [2]: Annals of Ulster

As has been pointed out, Bartrum is an excellent scholar, but this set,
"Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400", constitutes his scholarly conclusions
concerning what the authentic Welsh legends were, without implication that
he has applied his scholarship to the genealogical questions behind them.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Le Bateman <LeBateman@att.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/26/2005 8:24:21 PM
Subject: Rhun Map Artgal

Did a daughter of Kenneth MacAlpin marry Rhun Map Artgal. King of
Strathclyde. What sources are there to prove this? Did Kenneth MacAlpin
even
have any daughters? This supposed Princess was supposedly born in 818. Who
was King Artgal's mother?
Le

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 28 apr 2005 18:01:59

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 03:24:37 +0000 (UTC), LeBateman@att.net ("Le
Bateman") wrote:

Did a daughter of Kenneth MacAlpin marry Rhun Map Artgal. King of
Strathclyde. What sources are there to prove this?

See Anderson's "King's and Kingship in Early Scotland", pp. 2501,
which quotes from the Scottish Chronicle in the Poppleton MS:

"Eochodius autem filius Run|regis Britannorum nepos Cinadeí ex filia
regnavit annis .xi. ; ..."

Except for a vague reference in "Berchan's prophesy", this is the only
known reference to Eochaid. None of the other Scottish king lists
include him.

Did Kenneth MacAlpin even have any daughters?

Yes. As already pointed out, Niall Glundub was also a maternal
grandson of Kenneth.

This supposed Princess was supposedly born in 818.

The date is evidently no more than a guess.

Who was King Artgal's mother?

Unknown.

Stewart Baldwin

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 28 apr 2005 18:18:42

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 05:29:45 +0000 (UTC), pkd-gm@earthlink.net ("Paul
K Davis") wrote:

Bartrum (1974) v#1, p#21 (of the introductory material), page caption
"Strathclyde".

[ten generations]
|
Dyfnwal, d. 760
|
Owain
|
Rhydderch
|
Dyfnwal
|
Arthgal, d. 872 [2]
|
Rhun = NN d. Kenneth macAlpin K. of Scots, d. 860
|
Eochaid, K. of Scots, 878-889, K. of Strathclyde 889-?
|?
Land, d. Eochaid of Dalriada = Niall Glundub, High K. of Ireland 916-919

footnote [2]: Annals of Ulster

As has been pointed out, Bartrum is an excellent scholar, but this set,
"Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400", constitutes his scholarly conclusions
concerning what the authentic Welsh legends were, without implication that
he has applied his scholarship to the genealogical questions behind them.

Comments:

1. I know of no clear evidence that Eochaid was also king of
Strathclyde.

2. The Ban Shenchus entry giving Land ("Land ingen Eachach do Dal
Riada, bean Neill Glundub, mathair Muirchertaig na cochall craiceand")
makes her a daughter of a certain Eochu/Eochaid of Dál Riata, wife of
Niall Glúndub, and mother of Niall's son Muirchertach. I have made
detailed postings before saying why I do not believe that Land's
father should be identified with Eochaid son of Rhun (see the
archives).

Stewart Baldwin

Paul K Davis

Re: Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 29 apr 2005 06:38:53

Thanks, Stewart. Apparently much emphasis should be placed on Bartrum's
question mark.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/28/2005 10:18:49 AM
Subject: Re: Rhun Map Artgal

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 05:29:45 +0000 (UTC), pkd-gm@earthlink.net ("Paul
K Davis") wrote:

Bartrum (1974) v#1, p#21 (of the introductory material), page caption
"Strathclyde".

[snip my own stuff]
Rhun = NN d. Kenneth macAlpin K. of Scots, d. 860
|
Eochaid, K. of Scots, 878-889, K. of Strathclyde 889-?
|?
Land, d. Eochaid of Dalriada = Niall Glundub, High K. of Ireland 916-919

footnote [2]: Annals of Ulster

As has been pointed out, Bartrum is an excellent scholar, but this set,
"Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400", constitutes his scholarly conclusions
concerning what the authentic Welsh legends were, without implication
that
he has applied his scholarship to the genealogical questions behind them.

Comments:

1. I know of no clear evidence that Eochaid was also king of
Strathclyde.

2. The Ban Shenchus entry giving Land ("Land ingen Eachach do Dal
Riada, bean Neill Glundub, mathair Muirchertaig na cochall craiceand")
makes her a daughter of a certain Eochu/Eochaid of Dál Riata, wife of
Niall Glúndub, and mother of Niall's son Muirchertach. I have made
detailed postings before saying why I do not believe that Land's
father should be identified with Eochaid son of Rhun (see the
archives).

Stewart Baldwin

Paul K Davis

Re: Rhun Map Artgal

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 29 apr 2005 07:09:55

Now that I read Stewart's note more carefully, I realize it is not enough
to emphasize the question mark in Bartrum's chart. The actual problem in
Bartrum's chart is that one "person" is very probably actually two distinct
individuals. I believe Bartrum was trying to point out the dubiousness of
the identification, but simply placing a question mark on the line did not
communicate to me the same meaning that Stewart communicates. I have now
separated these two Eochaids in my own database.

Thanks again Stewart.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Paul K Davis <pkd-gm@earthlink.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/28/2005 8:38:36 PM
Subject: Re: Rhun Map Artgal

Thanks, Stewart. Apparently much emphasis should be placed on Bartrum's
question mark.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/28/2005 10:18:49 AM
Subject: Re: Rhun Map Artgal

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 05:29:45 +0000 (UTC), pkd-gm@earthlink.net ("Paul
K Davis") wrote:

Bartrum (1974) v#1, p#21 (of the introductory material), page caption
"Strathclyde".

[snip my own stuff]
Rhun = NN d. Kenneth macAlpin K. of Scots, d. 860
|
Eochaid, K. of Scots, 878-889, K. of Strathclyde 889-?
|?
Land, d. Eochaid of Dalriada = Niall Glundub, High K. of Ireland
916-919

footnote [2]: Annals of Ulster

As has been pointed out, Bartrum is an excellent scholar, but this set,
"Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400", constitutes his scholarly
conclusions
concerning what the authentic Welsh legends were, without implication
that
he has applied his scholarship to the genealogical questions behind
them.

Comments:

1. I know of no clear evidence that Eochaid was also king of
Strathclyde.

2. The Ban Shenchus entry giving Land ("Land ingen Eachach do Dal
Riada, bean Neill Glundub, mathair Muirchertaig na cochall craiceand")
makes her a daughter of a certain Eochu/Eochaid of Dál Riata, wife of
Niall Glúndub, and mother of Niall's son Muirchertach. I have made
detailed postings before saying why I do not believe that Land's
father should be identified with Eochaid son of Rhun (see the
archives).

Stewart Baldwin


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