Spanish Question

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Leo van de Pas

Spanish Question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 22 apr 2005 02:28:06

I have fragments of two Spanish families but I really think it is one and the same. However, different spelling also make me ask : can anyone tell what is correct?

Guturre Mendes, Count of Coimbra married Elvira Agatoimes
their son
Hermengilde Guterres, Count of Coimbra married Hermesinda Gatonez, her parents not mentioned
their daughter
Elvira Menedez died circa October 921, having married 890/900 Ordono II, King of Asturias

second line
Gutier married Elvira
their son
Hermenegildo Gutierrez married Hermesinda Gatonez, daughter of Gaton, Count of Viero and Egilona
their daughter
Illdoncia died in 942 and was married to Count Gutierre Osorez.

With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Spanish Question

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 22 apr 2005 02:46:53

Leo van de Pas wrote:
I have fragments of two Spanish families but I really think it is one and the same. However, different spelling also make me ask : can anyone tell what is correct?

Guturre Mendes, Count of Coimbra married Elvira Agatoimes
their son
Hermengilde Guterres, Count of Coimbra married Hermesinda Gatonez, her parents not mentioned
their daughter
Elvira Menedez died circa October 921, having married 890/900 Ordono II, King of Asturias

second line
Gutier married Elvira
their son
Hermenegildo Gutierrez married Hermesinda Gatonez, daughter of Gaton, Count of Viero and Egilona
their daughter
Illdoncia died in 942 and was married to Count Gutierre Osorez.

These are the same - Elvira and Ildoncia were sisters (and Gutierre
Osorez was their first cousin, son of Osorio Gutierrez, brother of
Hermengildo. I don't think that there is any evidence that Gutierre,
their father, was Count of Coimbra, and his patronymic is somewhat
speculative. As to Elvira "Agatoimes", this patronymic should also be
rejected, it being a Portuguese rendering of Gatonez - someone has
mistakenly given the mother-in-law the patronymic of the
daughter-in-law. I am not sure, off hand, if Egilona is well supported
or not.

taf

Francisco Antonio Doria

Re: Spanish Question

Legg inn av Francisco Antonio Doria » 23 apr 2005 16:30:06

Leo, Todd,

Let me just point out that besides Saez' text (which I
owe Maria Emma) there is a much-disputed but
chronologically sound genealogy of these people that
goes all the way up to Count Ardabasto (Artavazd) in
the early 7th century.

fa

--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Leo van de Pas wrote:
I have fragments of two Spanish families but I
really think it is one and the same. However,
different spelling also make me ask : can anyone
tell what is correct?

Guturre Mendes, Count of Coimbra married Elvira
Agatoimes
their son
Hermengilde Guterres, Count of Coimbra married
Hermesinda Gatonez, her parents not mentioned
their daughter
Elvira Menedez died circa October 921, having
married 890/900 Ordono II, King of Asturias

second line
Gutier married Elvira
their son
Hermenegildo Gutierrez married Hermesinda Gatonez,
daughter of Gaton, Count of Viero and Egilona
their daughter
Illdoncia died in 942 and was married to Count
Gutierre Osorez.

These are the same - Elvira and Ildoncia were
sisters (and Gutierre
Osorez was their first cousin, son of Osorio
Gutierrez, brother of
Hermengildo. I don't think that there is any
evidence that Gutierre,
their father, was Count of Coimbra, and his
patronymic is somewhat
speculative. As to Elvira "Agatoimes", this
patronymic should also be
rejected, it being a Portuguese rendering of Gatonez
- someone has
mistakenly given the mother-in-law the patronymic of
the
daughter-in-law. I am not sure, off hand, if
Egilona is well supported
or not.

taf



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