Genographic project

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Peter Stewart

Genographic project

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 apr 2005 07:15:06

This morning a Dr Spencer Wells appeared on Australian breakfast
television, promoting his "Genographic" project that is sponsored by
National Geographic (see
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/geno ... urney.html).

In the course of the interview he claimed to have discovered that 10%
of "Asian" males (strangely, he didn't specify further) are descended -
presumably in agnatic line for their sex to be especially relevant -
from Genghiz Khan. The clear implication was that if enough people buy
the test kit he was flogging & participate in his study, more such
startling information will be uncovered about other historic
individuals.

Does anyone know the background of Dr Wells, and whether his work in
this field is highly regarded by experts?

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2005 09:25:34

Is it actually possible to determine this? Someone correct my false
understanding that you could be descended also from one of Genghis' brothers or
paternal uncles and still have the same Y-DNA ? Is that correct.
Will

In a message dated 4/20/2005 11:16:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


In the course of the interview he claimed to have discovered that 10%
of "Asian" males (strangely, he didn't specify further) are descended -
presumably in agnatic line for their sex to be especially relevant -
from Genghiz Khan.

Gjest

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2005 13:41:04

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Is it actually possible to determine this? Someone correct my false
understanding that you could be descended also from one of Genghis'
brothers or
paternal uncles and still have the same Y-DNA ? Is that correct.
Will

Yes, Y-DNA would be the same.

Doug Smith
In a message dated 4/20/2005 11:16:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


In the course of the interview he claimed to have discovered that
10%
of "Asian" males (strangely, he didn't specify further) are
descended -
presumably in agnatic line for their sex to be especially relevant
-
from Genghiz Khan.

Doug McDonald

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 21 apr 2005 15:58:24

Peter Stewart wrote:

Does anyone know the background of Dr Wells, and whether his work in
this field is highly regarded by experts?



He is very well known in the field and generally regarded as
a very competant but rather stubborn-minded and parochial
researcher. He is, however, a great marketer.

However, see
http://press.nationalgeographic.com/pre ... ALlthd.pdf

which ends in .pdf and certainly will get broken.

The names Elena Balanovska (North Eurasia),
Fabricio R. Santos (South America), and
Lluis Quintana-Murci (Central and Western Europe)
are also very well known and highly regarded.
Theodore Schurr (America) and Chris Tyler-Smith
(Western and Central Europe) are also very well known.
I like Schurr, but some like him less than I. Tyler-Smith
suffers by association with Sykes.

The other names I am unfamiliar with.

Doug McDonald

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 21 apr 2005 16:45:06

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Is it actually possible to determine this? Someone correct my false
understanding that you could be descended also from one of Genghis' brothers or
paternal uncles and still have the same Y-DNA ? Is that correct.

You are correct in this.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 21 apr 2005 17:00:30

Ernst Hoffmann wrote:
How about if you would be female ?

For a female, you could only detect the female lineage, as they have no
Y chromosome.

And where did they sample a specimen
of HIS y-chromosome since to the best of my knowledge his
tomb and whereabouts are slighty "obscure" (not to use unknown)

They did not sample his DNA. Hypothetically, they could sample any
known male-line descendant to reveal his 'type' (crypto-paternity events
aside - you would actually want to sample known descendants of multiple
sons to be sure that you got the right one). Someone can correct me if
I am wrong here, but IIRC this is based on a study where they found that
10% had the same type, and then speculated as to what historical/genetic
phenomenon might have brought this about, and that led them to the
family of Genghis Khan, but I don't know that they actually sampled a
known descendant.

Ernst Hoffmann

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Ernst Hoffmann » 21 apr 2005 18:34:36

How about if you would be female ? And where did they sample a specimen
of HIS y-chromosome since to the best of my knowledge his
tomb and whereabouts are slighty "obscure" (not to use unknown)

Ernst


Am 21.04.2005 um 14:41 schrieb alden@mindspring.com:

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Is it actually possible to determine this? Someone correct my false
understanding that you could be descended also from one of Genghis'
brothers or
paternal uncles and still have the same Y-DNA ? Is that correct.
Will

Yes, Y-DNA would be the same.

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2005 19:20:33

In a message dated 4/21/2005 9:15:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

Someone can correct me if
I am wrong here, but IIRC this is based on a study where they found that
10% had the same type, and then speculated as to what historical/genetic
phenomenon might have brought this about, and that led them to the
family of Genghis Khan, but I don't know that they actually sampled a
known descendant.



Consider this situation. Consider the possibility that Genghis belonged to a
sub-clan who were all male-line cousins. If second-cousins always married
each other ONLY if their fathers were cousins (not their mothers), then you
would get a large group of men with the same Y-chromosome.
Now, the advantage of that sub-clan, relatives of Genghis could explain
their increased productivity in making new descendents. And yet they are not
all Genghis, but they all do share a common male ancestor. He just might be
100, 200 or 800 years prior to Genghis.

Will Johnson

Gordon Banks

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 21 apr 2005 21:40:22

I don't know his reputation, but I don't see paying to contribute my DNA
when there are other funded projects which will send you their DNA kit
free.

For example:

http://smgf.org/

On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 23:15 -0700, Peter Stewart wrote:
This morning a Dr Spencer Wells appeared on Australian breakfast
television, promoting his "Genographic" project that is sponsored by
National Geographic (see
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/geno ... urney.html).

In the course of the interview he claimed to have discovered that 10%
of "Asian" males (strangely, he didn't specify further) are descended -
presumably in agnatic line for their sex to be especially relevant -
from Genghiz Khan. The clear implication was that if enough people buy
the test kit he was flogging & participate in his study, more such
startling information will be uncovered about other historic
individuals.

Does anyone know the background of Dr Wells, and whether his work in
this field is highly regarded by experts?

Peter Stewart
--

Gordon Banks <geb@gordonbanks.com>

Dora Smith

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 22 apr 2005 02:10:46

Well, Peter.

I can plainly see that the man thinks there are such things as genes.

This appears to be enough said for you.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:15 AM
Subject: Genographic project


This morning a Dr Spencer Wells appeared on Australian breakfast
television, promoting his "Genographic" project that is sponsored by
National Geographic (see
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/geno ... urney.html).

Does anyone know the background of Dr Wells, and whether his work in
this field is highly regarded by experts?

Peter Stewart

James Dow Allen

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av James Dow Allen » 22 apr 2005 08:45:04

WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<129.5b82e2c8.2f992cbf@aol.com>...
Consider this situation. Consider the possibility that Genghis belonged to a
sub-clan who were all male-line cousins. If second-cousins always married
each other ONLY if their fathers were cousins (not their mothers), then you
would get a large group of men with the same Y-chromosome.

On average an adult male will have one son who survives to adulthood,
or slightly more if the population is increasing. In other words, the
growth rate of an agnatic line depends only on the productivity of
those males (e.g. the *number* of wives and partners) not their *choice*
of wives. It's a well-known historic fact that Genghis' sons and grandsons
were *very* productive; what percentage of his enormous Y-chromosome
posterity descends instead from his brothers or cousins depends on when
this unusual sexual productivity began.

I note that Leo van de Pas's site shows rather few agnatic descendants
for Ghenghis, compared with say Egilmar's Oldenburgs. Most of the lines
from Ghenghis are via Juchi (who Leo shows as stepson); even there Leo
shows just one post-medieval agnatic lineage.

Summary: We're all descended from Ghenghis but will have trouble gaining
admission to the International Society of the Sons of the Golden Horde
because our descents depend on undocumented rapes.

James

Peter Stewart

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 apr 2005 08:58:43

""Dora Smith"" <villandra@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:004a01c546c7$563cf980$6900a8c0@austin.rr.com...
Well, Peter.

I can plainly see that the man thinks there are such things as genes.

This appears to be enough said for you.

I can't understand any sense in this at all - can you please let us know
more clearly just what preconceived notion of your own you are reading into
my words?

And kindly refrain from editing out sections of other people's posts in your
replies (as below) without indicating this. It is surely easy enough to
insert "<snip>" or something like it.

Peter Stewart



Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
villandra@austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 1:15 AM
Subject: Genographic project


This morning a Dr Spencer Wells appeared on Australian breakfast
television, promoting his "Genographic" project that is sponsored by
National Geographic (see
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/geno ... urney.html).

Does anyone know the background of Dr Wells, and whether his work in
this field is highly regarded by experts?

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 apr 2005 09:19:12

"James Dow Allen" <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:266426e1.0504212345.194531e8@posting.google.com...
WJhonson@aol.com wrote in message news:<129.5b82e2c8.2f992cbf@aol.com>...
Consider this situation. Consider the possibility that Genghis belonged
to a
sub-clan who were all male-line cousins. If second-cousins always
married
each other ONLY if their fathers were cousins (not their mothers), then
you
would get a large group of men with the same Y-chromosome.

On average an adult male will have one son who survives to adulthood,
or slightly more if the population is increasing. In other words, the
growth rate of an agnatic line depends only on the productivity of
those males (e.g. the *number* of wives and partners) not their *choice*
of wives. It's a well-known historic fact that Genghis' sons and
grandsons
were *very* productive; what percentage of his enormous Y-chromosome
posterity descends instead from his brothers or cousins depends on when
this unusual sexual productivity began.

But aren't there significant "Asian" populations that would not be expected
to share the Y-chromosome of Genghis?

Why would this descend to large numbers of Indians or Arabs, Burmese,
Laotians, Vietnamese, and others?

And if not, what proportion of Chinese, Turkish and other populations must
inherit the Y-DNA in order to make up 10% of the whole?

I still find it suspicious when an alleged expert claims scientific proof
that decendants of Genghis make up 10% of the entire, undifferentiated
population of "Asian males", and consequently suggests that similar
prodigies are waiting to be discovered elsewhere in the world through
suffienint paying customers for his expensive test kit.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Genographic project

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2005 19:33:04

In a message dated 4/22/2005 1:32:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:


I still find it suspicious when an alleged expert claims scientific proof
that decendants of Genghis make up 10% of the entire, undifferentiated
population of "Asian males", and consequently suggests that similar
prodigies are waiting to be discovered elsewhere in the world through
suffienint paying customers for his expensive test kit.

Ah ha. I had not thought of that angle, but very good.
So 10% of 2 billion times what's the price of his kit $20 ?
I need that profession.
Will Johnson

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