Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Paul K Davis
Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Eudokia (or Eudocia or Eudoxia) Ingerina was the mistress of Byzantine
emperor Michael III, and the wife of Basil I.
In a chart captioned "Some Anastasii - an hypothetical reconstruction",
Ford (T. Stanford M. S. P. Mommaerts-Browne) gives as Eudokia's mother a
Martinakia, daughter of Anastasios Martinakios. [Chart available at
Yahoo's ancient genealogy group.]
In a chart captioned "Five Descent-Lines of Queen Elizabeth of Britain from
Julia, Sister of Julius Caesar"; compiled by David Hughes, Eudokia's mother
is given as Melissena, daughter of Theophylactus. [Chart available at AOL
and Angelfire web sites.]
Ford admits his work is hypothetical, but I have found David Hughes's work
to require an extremely high degree of verification. I would therefore
tend toward Ford's proposal.
Is there any solid evidence on the subject?
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
emperor Michael III, and the wife of Basil I.
In a chart captioned "Some Anastasii - an hypothetical reconstruction",
Ford (T. Stanford M. S. P. Mommaerts-Browne) gives as Eudokia's mother a
Martinakia, daughter of Anastasios Martinakios. [Chart available at
Yahoo's ancient genealogy group.]
In a chart captioned "Five Descent-Lines of Queen Elizabeth of Britain from
Julia, Sister of Julius Caesar"; compiled by David Hughes, Eudokia's mother
is given as Melissena, daughter of Theophylactus. [Chart available at AOL
and Angelfire web sites.]
Ford admits his work is hypothetical, but I have found David Hughes's work
to require an extremely high degree of verification. I would therefore
tend toward Ford's proposal.
Is there any solid evidence on the subject?
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
"Paul K Davis" wrote:
Not an answer to this, but maybe Ford can tell us if he knows what
Cyril Mango had to say about her parentage in 'Eudocia Ingerina, the
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty', _Byzantium and its Image: History
and Culture of the Byzantine Empire and its Heritage_ (London, 1984).
Peter Stewart
Eudokia (or Eudocia or Eudoxia) Ingerina was the mistress of
Byzantine
emperor Michael III, and the wife of Basil I.
In a chart captioned "Some Anastasii - an hypothetical
reconstruction",
Ford (T. Stanford M. S. P. Mommaerts-Browne) gives as Eudokia's
mother a
Martinakia, daughter of Anastasios Martinakios. [Chart available at
Yahoo's ancient genealogy group.]
In a chart captioned "Five Descent-Lines of Queen Elizabeth of
Britain from
Julia, Sister of Julius Caesar"; compiled by David Hughes, Eudokia's
mother
is given as Melissena, daughter of Theophylactus. [Chart available
at AOL
and Angelfire web sites.]
Ford admits his work is hypothetical, but I have found David Hughes's
work
to require an extremely high degree of verification. I would
therefore
tend toward Ford's proposal.
Is there any solid evidence on the subject?
Not an answer to this, but maybe Ford can tell us if he knows what
Cyril Mango had to say about her parentage in 'Eudocia Ingerina, the
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty', _Byzantium and its Image: History
and Culture of the Byzantine Empire and its Heritage_ (London, 1984).
Peter Stewart
-
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
No, as I have not had luck in procuring a copy. I have been attempting to
uncover my source, (still packed between moves), for EI's ancestry. Without
finding it, I believe that it was, Mango, Cyril. "Eudocia Ingerina, The
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty," _Zbornik Radova Vizantoloskog
Instituta_, 14-15. 1973, pp. 17-24, which would appear to be an earlier
edition of the piece to which Peter refers. Much of the underbearing of the
thesis was based upon the politics of iconoclasm. A blend of politics &
religion - how Byzantine!
Any way, this thesis dealt with the displeasure of Theodora, Michael III's
mother, with Eudkia's family's proponence of icon's, and the use of the
'patronymic' Martiniak. IIRC, the author cited sources stating that
Eudokia's mother was, indeed, a Martinakia. Eudokia is descibed by Photios,
_inter alia_, as a relative of the imperial family. (which is what brought
her to the attention of Michael's advisors/counselors). A generation before
Eudokia's mother was one Anastasios Martinakios, (hence, the inclusion on
this chart), who was an imperial relative. From this point, I postulated
that Anastasios' father was named Martin, and that his mother was of the
imperial family.
Now, Konstantinos V's third wife was, also, named Eudokia, and bore him five
sons. This side of the family was eclipsed, in part, for their adherence to
the veneration of icons. I, therefore, theorized that one of these sons,
(Christophoros, Nikephoros, Niketas, Anthimos and Eudokimos), had a
daughter, ( named, I venture, [Eudokia]), who married Martin, (a Norman from
So. Italy or Sicily), and bore Anastasios Martinakios.
Open to any (polite) comments, or criticisms,
Ford
'The ice was here, the ice was there,
The ice was all around:
It cracked and growled, and roared and howled,
Like noises in a swound!'
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
'The Rhime of the Ancient Mariner'
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
"Paul K Davis" wrote:
Eudokia (or Eudocia or Eudoxia) Ingerina was the mistress of
Byzantine
emperor Michael III, and the wife of Basil I.
In a chart captioned "Some Anastasii - an hypothetical
reconstruction",
Ford (T. Stanford M. S. P. Mommaerts-Browne) gives as Eudokia's
mother a
Martinakia, daughter of Anastasios Martinakios. [Chart available at
Yahoo's ancient genealogy group.]
In a chart captioned "Five Descent-Lines of Queen Elizabeth of
Britain from
Julia, Sister of Julius Caesar"; compiled by David Hughes, Eudokia's
mother
is given as Melissena, daughter of Theophylactus. [Chart available
at AOL
and Angelfire web sites.]
Ford admits his work is hypothetical, but I have found David Hughes's
work
to require an extremely high degree of verification. I would
therefore
tend toward Ford's proposal.
Is there any solid evidence on the subject?
Not an answer to this, but maybe Ford can tell us if he knows what
Cyril Mango had to say about her parentage in 'Eudocia Ingerina, the
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty', _Byzantium and its Image: History
and Culture of the Byzantine Empire and its Heritage_ (London, 1984).
Peter Stewart
No, as I have not had luck in procuring a copy. I have been attempting to
uncover my source, (still packed between moves), for EI's ancestry. Without
finding it, I believe that it was, Mango, Cyril. "Eudocia Ingerina, The
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty," _Zbornik Radova Vizantoloskog
Instituta_, 14-15. 1973, pp. 17-24, which would appear to be an earlier
edition of the piece to which Peter refers. Much of the underbearing of the
thesis was based upon the politics of iconoclasm. A blend of politics &
religion - how Byzantine!
Any way, this thesis dealt with the displeasure of Theodora, Michael III's
mother, with Eudkia's family's proponence of icon's, and the use of the
'patronymic' Martiniak. IIRC, the author cited sources stating that
Eudokia's mother was, indeed, a Martinakia. Eudokia is descibed by Photios,
_inter alia_, as a relative of the imperial family. (which is what brought
her to the attention of Michael's advisors/counselors). A generation before
Eudokia's mother was one Anastasios Martinakios, (hence, the inclusion on
this chart), who was an imperial relative. From this point, I postulated
that Anastasios' father was named Martin, and that his mother was of the
imperial family.
Now, Konstantinos V's third wife was, also, named Eudokia, and bore him five
sons. This side of the family was eclipsed, in part, for their adherence to
the veneration of icons. I, therefore, theorized that one of these sons,
(Christophoros, Nikephoros, Niketas, Anthimos and Eudokimos), had a
daughter, ( named, I venture, [Eudokia]), who married Martin, (a Norman from
So. Italy or Sicily), and bore Anastasios Martinakios.
Open to any (polite) comments, or criticisms,
Ford
'The ice was here, the ice was there,
The ice was all around:
It cracked and growled, and roared and howled,
Like noises in a swound!'
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
'The Rhime of the Ancient Mariner'
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
""Stanford Mommaerts-Browne"" <StanfordMommaerts@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:008b01c543fb$ea3c4d80$79890d44@om.cox.net...
<snip>
Actually the same article in every respect - I apologise for my misleading
citation, which was to the Variorum reprint of Mango's selected papers,
including this one. I have now obtained a copy.
This is not quite so - first, Mango concluded (p. 18) that due to the
reticence of sources about Eudokia's father, who was clearly well
connnected, this Inger must in fact have been an iconoclast (his reasoning
is not convincing to me). More importantly for the present discussion, he
states in summary (p. 26):
"We have encountered two men called Inger...the second was Eudocia's father,
somehow related* to the Martinakioi, an iconoclast family that claimed a
distant kinship with the Amorian dynasty."
* note 58: The statement of Scylitzes [from the "Vita Basilii"]...suggests
it was Inger rather than, say, his wife, who belonged to the clan of the
Martinakioi. Since, however, we are dealing with a derivative and
uncritically edited text, it may be unwise to lay too much stress on the
masculine form". Mango had considered that this suggestion of a relationship
was probably true, due in part to the reporting of an Arab woman's prophesy
that "the Martinakioi would occupy the throne for a long time" (p. 20);
however, he rejected as a fiction the account of the famous beauty contest
in which Theophanu, daughter of Konstantinos Martinakios, was chosen as
bride for Eudocia's son Leo and "beleive it or not, Eudocia had never heard
of her" (p. 25)
_Propopography of the Byzantine Empire_, I. (641-867), edited by John Robert
Martindale, CD-ROM edition (London, 2001) has nothing to add about Eudocia's
mother, and cites Mango's paper for the name & oringins of her father.
..
Mango discussed (p. 21) the theory of Loparev that Eudokia was granddaughter
of Anastasios Martinakios, but he rejected this as "patently incorrect"
since it would mean that Leo VI had married his own first cousin [i.e. once
removed, as Theophanu's father Konstantinos was son of this Anastasios].
Mango wrote (pp 26-27): "The name Martinakes ("little Martin") points to a
western or a Balkan origin. If it is granted that Inger is a nordic name
(and I can find no other explanation of it), we would have to assume that at
least one Scandinavian or north German family reached Constantinople by the
end of the wighth century at the latest, converted to Christianity and
married into the Byzantine gentry. This is several decades earlier than any
previously postulated contacts between the Northmen and Byzantium."
Peter Stewart
news:008b01c543fb$ea3c4d80$79890d44@om.cox.net...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
"Paul K Davis" wrote:
Eudokia (or Eudocia or Eudoxia) Ingerina was the mistress of
Byzantine emperor Michael III, and the wife of Basil I.
In a chart captioned "Some Anastasii - an hypothetical
reconstruction", Ford (T. Stanford M. S. P. Mommaerts-Browne)
gives as Eudokia's mother a Martinakia, daughter of Anastasios
Martinakios. [Chart available at Yahoo's ancient genealogy group.]
<snip>
Is there any solid evidence on the subject?
Not an answer to this, but maybe Ford can tell us if he knows what
Cyril Mango had to say about her parentage in 'Eudocia Ingerina, the
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty', _Byzantium and its Image: History
and Culture of the Byzantine Empire and its Heritage_ (London, 1984).
Peter Stewart
No, as I have not had luck in procuring a copy. I have been attempting to
uncover my source, (still packed between moves), for EI's ancestry.
Without
finding it, I believe that it was, Mango, Cyril. "Eudocia Ingerina, The
Normans and the Macedonian Dynasty," _Zbornik Radova Vizantoloskog
Instituta_, 14-15. 1973, pp. 17-24, which would appear to be an earlier
edition of the piece to which Peter refers. Much of the underbearing of
the
thesis was based upon the politics of iconoclasm. A blend of politics &
religion - how Byzantine!
Actually the same article in every respect - I apologise for my misleading
citation, which was to the Variorum reprint of Mango's selected papers,
including this one. I have now obtained a copy.
Any way, this thesis dealt with the displeasure of Theodora, Michael III's
mother, with Eudkia's family's proponence of icon's, and the use of the
'patronymic' Martiniak. IIRC, the author cited sources stating that
Eudokia's mother was, indeed, a Martinakia.
This is not quite so - first, Mango concluded (p. 18) that due to the
reticence of sources about Eudokia's father, who was clearly well
connnected, this Inger must in fact have been an iconoclast (his reasoning
is not convincing to me). More importantly for the present discussion, he
states in summary (p. 26):
"We have encountered two men called Inger...the second was Eudocia's father,
somehow related* to the Martinakioi, an iconoclast family that claimed a
distant kinship with the Amorian dynasty."
* note 58: The statement of Scylitzes [from the "Vita Basilii"]...suggests
it was Inger rather than, say, his wife, who belonged to the clan of the
Martinakioi. Since, however, we are dealing with a derivative and
uncritically edited text, it may be unwise to lay too much stress on the
masculine form". Mango had considered that this suggestion of a relationship
was probably true, due in part to the reporting of an Arab woman's prophesy
that "the Martinakioi would occupy the throne for a long time" (p. 20);
however, he rejected as a fiction the account of the famous beauty contest
in which Theophanu, daughter of Konstantinos Martinakios, was chosen as
bride for Eudocia's son Leo and "beleive it or not, Eudocia had never heard
of her" (p. 25)
_Propopography of the Byzantine Empire_, I. (641-867), edited by John Robert
Martindale, CD-ROM edition (London, 2001) has nothing to add about Eudocia's
mother, and cites Mango's paper for the name & oringins of her father.
..
Eudokia is descibed by Photios,
_inter alia_, as a relative of the imperial family. (which is what brought
her to the attention of Michael's advisors/counselors). A generation
before
Eudokia's mother was one Anastasios Martinakios, (hence, the inclusion on
this chart), who was an imperial relative. From this point, I postulated
that Anastasios' father was named Martin, and that his mother was of the
imperial family.
Mango discussed (p. 21) the theory of Loparev that Eudokia was granddaughter
of Anastasios Martinakios, but he rejected this as "patently incorrect"
since it would mean that Leo VI had married his own first cousin [i.e. once
removed, as Theophanu's father Konstantinos was son of this Anastasios].
Now, Konstantinos V's third wife was, also, named Eudokia, and bore him
five
sons. This side of the family was eclipsed, in part, for their adherence
to
the veneration of icons. I, therefore, theorized that one of these sons,
(Christophoros, Nikephoros, Niketas, Anthimos and Eudokimos), had a
daughter, ( named, I venture, [Eudokia]), who married Martin, (a Norman
from
So. Italy or Sicily), and bore Anastasios Martinakios.
Mango wrote (pp 26-27): "The name Martinakes ("little Martin") points to a
western or a Balkan origin. If it is granted that Inger is a nordic name
(and I can find no other explanation of it), we would have to assume that at
least one Scandinavian or north German family reached Constantinople by the
end of the wighth century at the latest, converted to Christianity and
married into the Byzantine gentry. This is several decades earlier than any
previously postulated contacts between the Northmen and Byzantium."
Peter Stewart
-
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
'The Rhime of the Ancient Mariner'
Also see:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0852140309, &
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0989184366
-
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
I think that this point is beyond debate.
This part, I don't see as a negation. It definately makes the whole thesis
less convincing, barring other evidence.
In 'googling' Melissenoi, I found some old discussions of them, on this very
list. Now David Hughs' piece, cited by Paul, gave a Melissena as mother or
grandmother of Eudokia. Christian Settipani, in his post to this list, on
said topic, presented a link to the Amorian dynasty by way of the sister of
Konstantinos V's third wife, Eudokia, whom I mentioned earlier. Might this
be the way in which EI was related to the imperial family?
Please understand that my charts were drawn up to spur discussion and
investigatio, so I feel bound to defend nothing, here. I am just looking to
compare notes on this, and, hopefully, to find some answers.
Sincerely,
Ford
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Mango wrote (pp 26-27): "The name Martinakes ("little Martin") points to a
western or a Balkan origin. If it is granted that Inger is a nordic name
(and I can find no other explanation of it),
I think that this point is beyond debate.
we would have to assume that at
least one Scandinavian or north German family reached Constantinople by
the
end of the wighth century at the latest, converted to Christianity and
married into the Byzantine gentry. This is several decades earlier than
any
previously postulated contacts between the Northmen and Byzantium."
Peter Stewart
This part, I don't see as a negation. It definately makes the whole thesis
less convincing, barring other evidence.
In 'googling' Melissenoi, I found some old discussions of them, on this very
list. Now David Hughs' piece, cited by Paul, gave a Melissena as mother or
grandmother of Eudokia. Christian Settipani, in his post to this list, on
said topic, presented a link to the Amorian dynasty by way of the sister of
Konstantinos V's third wife, Eudokia, whom I mentioned earlier. Might this
be the way in which EI was related to the imperial family?
Please understand that my charts were drawn up to spur discussion and
investigatio, so I feel bound to defend nothing, here. I am just looking to
compare notes on this, and, hopefully, to find some answers.
Sincerely,
Ford
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Renia wrote:
Do you mean only that they are pronounced so today, or that they were
in the ninth century? (I think the latter is highly unlikely.)
Peter Stewart
They are two vowels, but together they are pronounced "ev".
Do you mean only that they are pronounced so today, or that they were
in the ninth century? (I think the latter is highly unlikely.)
Peter Stewart
-
Renia
Re: Eudokia Ingerina's mother
Peter Stewart wrote:
As to ancient pronunciation, I don't know. I know of at least one change:
THL = pronounced today "till", but anciently pronounced, "tell".
It is the root of telephone (in Greek today, till-e-fono)
The word autokinito means car (motor car, self-moving car). It is
pronounced: aftokinito. (kinito by itself, is the word for mobile phone,
auto means, of course, self-moving)
The suggests to me, that auto (now pronounced afto) was prevously
pronounced as "ow-to" or "aw-to".
Today, the euro, that pittance with which I amuse myelf, is an Evro.
Perhaps the "v" sound is a relatively modern pronounciation. I do know
that with till/tell, the English language adopted the old pronounciation
for root words, as it was then, and didn't adapt to the new. Perhaps the
same applied with "euro", "auto", etc.
Renia
Renia wrote:
They are two vowels, but together they are pronounced "ev".
Do you mean only that they are pronounced so today, or that they were
in the ninth century? (I think the latter is highly unlikely.)
As to ancient pronunciation, I don't know. I know of at least one change:
THL = pronounced today "till", but anciently pronounced, "tell".
It is the root of telephone (in Greek today, till-e-fono)
The word autokinito means car (motor car, self-moving car). It is
pronounced: aftokinito. (kinito by itself, is the word for mobile phone,
auto means, of course, self-moving)
The suggests to me, that auto (now pronounced afto) was prevously
pronounced as "ow-to" or "aw-to".
Today, the euro, that pittance with which I amuse myelf, is an Evro.
Perhaps the "v" sound is a relatively modern pronounciation. I do know
that with till/tell, the English language adopted the old pronounciation
for root words, as it was then, and didn't adapt to the new. Perhaps the
same applied with "euro", "auto", etc.
Renia