Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

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CED

Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 17 apr 2005 02:13:44

To the Newsgroup:

Mr. Richardson has submitted the following definition of vernacular:
"1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather

than a literary, cultured, or foreign language."



The below is an excerpt from a post of Mr. Douglas Richardson in which
he makes a point, seemingly as an authority on the matter, of
criticizing another's use of certain names. He states that these names
"need to be translated into the vernacular" without stating what
language is the vernacular. At the same time, he is critical of the use
of Alianore, as being archaic, while he corrects "Riddlesford" with the
archaic "Ridelisford."

(1) Mr Richardson states that "Elena is the Latin form of Ellen."
Presumably he believes that Ellen is a vernacular form. In what
language is Ellen the vernacular? What is his source for the form
"Ellen"?

In fact (using Charlotte M. Yonge's _History of Christian Names_) the
Latin form of that name is "Helena," while the English form includes,
among others, Helena, Helen, Elaine, Ellen, and Eleanor, and the Scots
includes Helen and Ellen, and the Irish includes Helena, and Eileen.
On what authority does Mr. Richardson make his claim that "Elena is the
Latin form of Ellen" or that Ellen is vernacular?

(2) Mr. Richardson states that "Devorguilla is the Latin form of
Devorguil."
Devorguilla was in fact a Scots name, the Angliscized (lowland Scots)
form of the Celtic "Dearbhforgail." "Devorguil" is simply a variant
shortening of "Devorguilla." (Again Yonge; and, among others, Hanks &
Hodges _Dictionary of First Names_)
(3) Mr. Richardson states that "Eva is the Latin form of Eve."
Here he is correct in stating that Eva is the Latin form. Eve is the
English (and French form); but even in English, Eva was a variant of
Eve. (Again among others Yonge, and Hanks & Hodges).
So, even when Mr. Richardson states a need to translate names into the
vernacular, he does not tell us the language of the vernacular. Also,
he seems not to know the Latin forms or the 'vernacular' forms on which
he insists.
It should be noted that, even Mr. Richardson's definition of
"vernacular" excludes literary or written languages.
An individual, on this list, who is an authority on the matter of
medieval names ought to be more careful of his facts.
To be continued.

CED

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Local: Thurs,Sep 12 2002 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: Descendants of Uhtred of Galloway (was Re: Stuteville of
Cottingham)

Dear John ~ [* John P. Ravilious ]

A couple of quick comments about your post.
<snip>
Riddlesford is usually spelled Ridelisford in the literature.
<snip>
Lastly, you have several Latin name forms which need to be translated
into the vernacular. Elena is the Latin form of Ellen. Devorguilla
is the Latin form of Devorguil. Eva is the Latin form of Eve. Also,
Alianore is an archaic form of Eleanor.
I think that about covers it.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 17 apr 2005 03:30:49

To the Newsgroup:
Mr. Richardson recently (see spelling of the name Aline) submitted the
following definition of vernacular:
"1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather

than a literary, cultured, or foreign language."

Below is an excerpt of one of his posts in which he appears to think
that vernacular is the equivalent of modern.

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval From: royalances...@msn.com (Douglas
Richardson) - Date: 9 Sep 2002 01:02:09 -0700 Subject: Re:
Standardization and modernization of given names
Dear P.J.
<snip>
It depends on the whim of the person and how familiar he or she is with

the vernacular (or modern) form of the name.
<snip>
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

CED

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 17 apr 2005 15:27:08

To the Newsgroup:

Below is a posting by Mr. Douglas Richardson in which he says that "de
Burgh" is the vernacular form of Hubert de Burgh, sometime justiciar of
England during the reign of King Henry III, and earl of Kent.

Can Mr. Richardson tell us in which language was "de Burgh" used, in
the vernacular, during Hubert de Burgh's lifetime. Hubert de Burgh's
name appears on the record many times (both in official records and in
chronicles) during and shortly after his lifetime, beginning during the
reign of King John and continuing in Matthew of Paris. I have not
found an instance of "de Burgh."

Can Mr. Richardson tell us how such a spelling could have arisen in
Thirteenth Century England when the vernacular was English? (It is
hardly likely that such a spelling could have arisen in any variety of
French.) If "de Burgh" was a later creation in writing, how could it
have been "the correct vernacular form"?

To be continued.

CED

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval From:
douglasrichard...@royalancestry.net (Douglas Richardson) Date: 14 Oct
2004 05:39:22 -0700 Subject: Re: FW: de Burgh
bclag...@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message
<news:B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3EA0D0A58482BD0382D4E4@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Be the way, I was a bit surprised to see ODNB give the surname
as "de Burgh." These days one usually sees it as de Burgo, due
perhaps to the influence of Sir Ian Moncrieffe, who wrote that
"de Burgh" was an absurd and unhistorical modern invention.

Dear Brice ~
The reason why ODNB gives the surname as "de Burgh" is because it is
the correct vernacular form of this name. The form "de Burgo" is the
ancient Latin form of this name. With due respect to Sir Ian, the
Latin form is inappropriate to use in a modern text written in
English

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 18 apr 2005 02:00:25

To the Newsgroup:

Remembering that Mr. Richardson submitted the following definition of
vernacular:
"1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather

than a literary, cultured, or foreign language."

Below is an excerpt from a post by Mr. Richardson in which he leaves no
doubt as to the language which he considered to be "vernacular." He
wrote, respecting the names Ida and Ela that " the medieval vernacular
were actually Ide and Ele (these being the French forms)" yet he
employs Ida and Ela.

Three points to consider:

(1) He deems French to be the vernacular when he dealing with persons
who, for the most part, were subjects of English kings in England. This
is not a "language or dialect native to" England.

(2) Contrary to his own rule of using his "vernacular" forms, he uses
form which he knows not to be his "vernacular."

(3) By this time French was a literary language in France so, by his
own definition, it could not be "vernacular" in that land.

To be continued

CED

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval From: royalances...@msn.com (Douglas
Richardson) Date: 16 Jan 2003 16:57:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Fitz
Roy:RichardSmith v. Richardson
Dear Richard ~
You've addressed the problems which we medievalists face in a very
succinct fashion.

<snip>
Given names such as Ida and Ela in the medieval vernacular
were actually Ide and Ele (these being the French forms). However,
again bowing the modern convention, I employ Ida and Ela in my
records.
<snip>
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
s...@email.unc.edu ("Richard Smyth at UNC-CH") wrote in message
<news:001f01c2bd91$a156e7d0$0201a8c0@peirce>...

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 21 apr 2005 17:53:10

To the Newsgroup:

Thus far I have tried to avoid continental examples of Mr. Richardson's
misuse of the term "vernacular." However, since in the following post,
he criticizes "English historians and genealogists," it is appropriate
to include it among the English posts, rather than the continental
posts (to be considered at a later date).

Mr. Richardson says: "that English historians and genealogists usually
refer to Queen Bérengère as Berengaria. This is rather misleading, as
I believe Berengaria is the Latin form of the Queen's name. Bérengère
is the way her name is presented in French sources such as the
Boulancourt Abbey obituaire. As best I can tell, this is the
contemporary vernacular form of the Queen's name."

First, it is necessary to point out that Mr. Richardson has said in
numerous posts that it is not proper to use Latin forms of names. If
we are to follow his dictates, we must use "vernacular" forms of those
names, in this case Berengaria.
Remembering that Mr. Richardson submitted the following definition of
vernacular:
"1 a : using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather
than a literary, cultured, or foreign language," we must find a
language or dialect native to Berengaria of Navarre's place of birth
(or as Mr. Richardson chooses, the place of her final residence) which
is not literary, not cultured, and not foreign.
So far as we know, Berengaria was born in Navarre. I have no evidence
as to whether the local Navarrese dialect was literary at that time, so
we can assume, as working hypothesis, that Navarrese would be the
vernacular in her place of birth. We do not know, so far as I can
determine, how Berengaria was pronounced in Navarrese. Until proven
otherwise, under Mr. Richardson's definition, we are left with the name
we have always known: Berengaria.
Mr. Richardson says that as best "I can tell, this [Bérengère] is the
contemporary vernacular form of the Queen's name."
In another post he contends that since she spent her last twenty-four
years in France, we must assume that Bérengère was the name she used.
Two points to be considered:
(1) She spent those last years, for the most part, as a resident in a
monastery; so we do not know the language she used in her last years.
(2) Bérengère, with diacritical marks, is modern French, written
after 1500. It is almost imposible for that form to be used as the
"contemporary vernacular form of the Queen's name." If the French
sources use Bérengère, those sources are using modern French forms,
not the "contemporary vernacular" form.

We should as two questions:

(1) Why not use Latin forms of names?

(2) Where did Mr. Richardson learn the history of the French language?

Will Mr. Richardson answer them?

To be continued.

CED

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval From: royalances...@msn.com (Douglas
Richardson) - Find messages by this author Date: 1 May 2003 00:44:10
-0700 Local: Thurs,May 1 2003 12:44 am Subject: Re: Death date of Queen
Bérengère of England
Dear John ~
You've asked a good question. I'll try to answer it as best I can.
<snip>

Given that we know the Queen Bérengère died in December, 1230, I
think
it is highly probable the her obituaire dated 23 December listed in
the records of Boulancourt Abbey is likewise her death day and month.
By the way, I might point out that English historians and genealogists
usually refer to Queen Bérengère as Berengaria. This is rather
misleading, as I believe Berengaria is the Latin form of the Queen's
name. Bérengère is the way her name is presented in French sources
such as the Boulancourt Abbey obituaire. As best I can tell, this is
the contemporary vernacular form of the Queen's name. See, for
example, Cartulaire Normand, by L. Delisle (1882), pg. 19; and
Cartulaire de Château-du-Loir, by E. Vallée (1905), pp. 80-81.
<snip>

Denis Beauregard

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 21 apr 2005 18:16:25

On 21 Apr 2005 09:53:10 -0700, "CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:

Can you read the manual of your newsreader and learn to reply and
quote correctly ? It is not possible to answer to your messages
because they are so badly formatted and out of the relevant thread.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 21 apr 2005 21:47:56

Denis Beauregard:

I do not understand and apologize for not doing so.

I do not have a manual for my newsreader.

If you can explain how I may reply to older messages which do not have
a direct reply button, I would greatly appreciate your assisting me.

CED

Denis Beauregard

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 21 apr 2005 22:50:09

On 21 Apr 2005 13:47:56 -0700, "CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:

Denis Beauregard:

I do not understand and apologize for not doing so.

I do not have a manual for my newsreader.

If you can explain how I may reply to older messages which do not have
a direct reply button, I would greatly appreciate your assisting me.

I don't have the same newsreader and I don't know which one you use.

Usually, the following options are available:

- reply or reply in private or reply to poster, etc.
- reply to all or reply to newsgroup/group, etc. This is the one
you need
- post a new message or begin a new thread, etc.


Also, you must select the message to which you reply and not your own
message.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 22 apr 2005 00:50:27

Denise Beauregard:

Thank you, I will try do do better. If it doesn't work out, please
advise me further.

I hope you understand that my concern is Mr. Richardson's mis-use of
the term "vernacular." If you could advise me as to how I can use his
various misuses of that term in the past to demonstrate his limited
knowledge of medieval languages, please do so.

CED

CED

Re: Mr Richardson's use of the term "vernacular"

Legg inn av CED » 22 apr 2005 00:55:42

Denise Beauregard:

Thank you, I will try do do better. If it doesn't work out, please
advise me further.

I hope you understand that my concern is Mr. Richardson's mis-use of
the term "vernacular." If you could advise me as to how I can use his
various misuses of that term in the past to demonstrate his limited
knowledge of medieval languages, please do so.

CED

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