Montaigu family

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John Parsons

Montaigu family

Legg inn av John Parsons » 16 apr 2005 19:20:01

Some information on this family can be found at

http://home.wxs.nl/~voort359/home3mntgu.html

From this site a conjectural pedigree might be constructed beginning with a
Roger de Montaigu, perhaps b ca 1050 (no date of death). He m. NF and was
father of:

1. NF m. Thomas de Boves, lord of Coucy
2. Conon/Cuno de Montaigu, b. ca 1064 [seems a bit early if his father was
b. ca 1050].

The said Conon/Cuno participated in the first crusade and d. ?1106. He m.
Ida de Fournon and was father of:

1. Goscelo/Gothelon b. ca 1080, fl. 1140 m. Ermentrude de Grandpre (no issue
indicated*).
2. Lambert de Montaigu, fl. 1096-1140

Lambert de Montaigu fl. 1096-1140; he founded the monastery of Neufmoustier
at Huy, near Liege. He m. Petronille a/k/a Gertrude [not identified as "of
Louvain"] and was the father of

1. Gertrude m. de Nesle

I am still not 100% sure that the wife of Lambert de Montaigu was really a
dau. of Henry III of Louvain; proof from a reliable source seems still to be
lacking. Perhaps an answer may be found among the charters of the monastery
of Neufmoustier, if any such survive.

*I have a note on a scrap of paper that appears to date from my
undergraduate days long since, showing that NF daughter of Gozelon/Gothelon
de Montaigu m. Dietrich of Wasserberg, count of Teisterbant. But I have not
found a count of Teisterbant among the Wasserberg family.

Regards

John P.

Rashid Amora

Re: Montaigu family

Legg inn av Rashid Amora » 17 apr 2005 10:14:21

Children of
Thierry (Diederik, Dirk) I/II of Alsace, Duke of Upper-Lorraine
(1055/1060?-1115)
and Hedwig of Formbach (?-?)
(See 27 generations back)


Petronilla of Lorraine
(3 times our ancestor, blood-relationship 0,0000048 %)
* between 1082/1100? x I. Floris II, Count of Holland (around 1113?) x II.
Lambert de Montaigu + 23-5-1144
The wife of Floris II, Count of Holland, is sometimes mistakenly called
Geertruid (Petronilla) of Saxony by some sources. This is possibly due to a
mix-up with another person called Geertruid (Gertrude) who may have been
Petronilla's half-sister, the daughter of Thierry's second wife Geertruid of
Flanders, see below.
For Petronilla's descendants by her first husband see the page on the Counts
of Holland
For her descendants by her second husband (who do not seem to be our
ancestors) see the page on De Montaigu




""John Parsons"" <carmi47@msn.com> schreef in bericht
news:BAY7-F146F8FD9BAF33F2B4691D9B2370@phx.gbl...
Some information on this family can be found at

http://home.wxs.nl/~voort359/home3mntgu.html

From this site a conjectural pedigree might be constructed beginning with
a Roger de Montaigu, perhaps b ca 1050 (no date of death). He m. NF and
was father of:

1. NF m. Thomas de Boves, lord of Coucy
2. Conon/Cuno de Montaigu, b. ca 1064 [seems a bit early if his father was
b. ca 1050].

The said Conon/Cuno participated in the first crusade and d. ?1106. He m.
Ida de Fournon and was father of:

1. Goscelo/Gothelon b. ca 1080, fl. 1140 m. Ermentrude de Grandpre (no
issue indicated*).
2. Lambert de Montaigu, fl. 1096-1140

Lambert de Montaigu fl. 1096-1140; he founded the monastery of
Neufmoustier at Huy, near Liege. He m. Petronille a/k/a Gertrude [not
identified as "of Louvain"] and was the father of

1. Gertrude m. de Nesle

I am still not 100% sure that the wife of Lambert de Montaigu was really a
dau. of Henry III of Louvain; proof from a reliable source seems still to
be lacking. Perhaps an answer may be found among the charters of the
monastery of Neufmoustier, if any such survive.

*I have a note on a scrap of paper that appears to date from my
undergraduate days long since, showing that NF daughter of
Gozelon/Gothelon de Montaigu m. Dietrich of Wasserberg, count of
Teisterbant. But I have not found a count of Teisterbant among the
Wasserberg family.

Regards

John P.

Peter Stewart

Re: Montaigu family

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 apr 2005 11:32:54

"Rashid Amora" <doosje@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NNp8e.35252$pU2.8293@amsnews03-serv.chello.com...
Children of
Thierry (Diederik, Dirk) I/II of Alsace, Duke of Upper-Lorraine
(1055/1060?-1115)
and Hedwig of Formbach (?-?)
(See 27 generations back)


Petronilla of Lorraine
(3 times our ancestor, blood-relationship 0,0000048 %)
* between 1082/1100? x I. Floris II, Count of Holland (around 1113?) x II.
Lambert de Montaigu + 23-5-1144
The wife of Floris II, Count of Holland, is sometimes mistakenly called
Geertruid (Petronilla) of Saxony by some sources. This is possibly due to
a mix-up with another person called Geertruid (Gertrude) who may have been
Petronilla's half-sister, the daughter of Thierry's second wife Geertruid
of Flanders, see below.
For Petronilla's descendants by her first husband see the page on the
Counts of Holland
For her descendants by her second husband (who do not seem to be our
ancestors) see the page on De Montaigu

What is your source for this information?

The genealogy of the counts of Flanders in 'Sächsischen Weltchronik', edited
by Ludwig Weiland, MGH Deutsche Chroniken II (Hanover, 1877), p. 277 is the
chief source for her, and this is not confused about her origin - she is
called "Gerdruth", daughter of Duke Thierry of Lorraine ("Dideric") by
Hedwig ("Hadewich"), and only her marriage to Count Florens is mentioned
("de wedewe Florencii des Vresen").



Émile Duvernoy also gave her only one husband in his discussion of Duke
Thierry's children [see 'Catalogue des actes des ducs de Lorraine de 1048 à
1139', _Mémoires de la Société d'archéologie lorraine et du Musée historique
lorrain_ 62 (1912) pp. 153-154, repinted Nancy (1915) p. 58]. He noted that
she was also known as Petronilla, considering this her second name.



George Poull followed & agreed with Duvernoy on these points [see _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue la Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991), p. 25.



Peter Stewart

Hans Vogels

Petronella of Lotharingen Re: Montaigu family

Legg inn av Hans Vogels » 18 apr 2005 18:55:59

Peter,

The source for this is an Dutch article by dr. H. Bruch, "Heette
gravin Petronilla (van Holland) werkelijk Geertrui?", published in De
Nederlandsche Leeuw jrg. CXI, 1994, kolom 217-223. He based his
opinion on a chronological review of the known historical sources.

Rijmgenealogie (ca. 1123-1125):
Petronella halfsister of the Saxon duke Lotharius, the new emperor (no
literal Latin quote, he points to an earlier article of his hand "De
eerste graven van Holland", in Holland, regionaal-historisch
tijdschrift 18 (1986) page 12)

Ekkehard (died ca. 1130) in Monumenta Germaniae Scriptores VI, page
261:
a noblewoman, whose name name is not mentioned, the sister of duke
Lotharius (ubi matrona quedam, cuius nomen excidit, soror nimirum
Lotharii ducis ..)

Annalista Saxo (ca. 1139) in Monumenta Germaniae Scriptores VI, page
759:
the sister of duke Liuderus, named Geertrui or Petronilla
(ubi soror Liuderi ducis, Gertrudis sive Petronella,...)

Chronographus Saxo (ca. 1188):
countess Geertrui, ....., sister of duke Lotharius
(Gertruidis comitissa de regione quae vulgo Hollandt vocatur, soror
Lotharii Saxonie ducis imperatori rebellat)

All later sources have just copied "Geertrui" or the "Geertrui named
Petronilla".

With regards,
Hans Vogels



Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message news:<qXq8e.14379$5F3.12019@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
"Rashid Amora" <doosje@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NNp8e.35252$pU2.8293@amsnews03-serv.chello.com...

Children of
Thierry (Diederik, Dirk) I/II of Alsace, Duke of Upper-Lorraine
(1055/1060?-1115)
and Hedwig of Formbach (?-?)
(See 27 generations back)


Petronilla of Lorraine
(3 times our ancestor, blood-relationship 0,0000048 %)
* between 1082/1100? x I. Floris II, Count of Holland (around 1113?) x II.
Lambert de Montaigu + 23-5-1144
The wife of Floris II, Count of Holland, is sometimes mistakenly called
Geertruid (Petronilla) of Saxony by some sources. This is possibly due to
a mix-up with another person called Geertruid (Gertrude) who may have been
Petronilla's half-sister, the daughter of Thierry's second wife Geertruid
of Flanders, see below.
For Petronilla's descendants by her first husband see the page on the
Counts of Holland
For her descendants by her second husband (who do not seem to be our
ancestors) see the page on De Montaigu

What is your source for this information?

The genealogy of the counts of Flanders in 'Sächsischen Weltchronik', edited
by Ludwig Weiland, MGH Deutsche Chroniken II (Hanover, 1877), p. 277 is the
chief source for her, and this is not confused about her origin - she is
called "Gerdruth", daughter of Duke Thierry of Lorraine ("Dideric") by
Hedwig ("Hadewich"), and only her marriage to Count Florens is mentioned
("de wedewe Florencii des Vresen").



Émile Duvernoy also gave her only one husband in his discussion of Duke
Thierry's children [see 'Catalogue des actes des ducs de Lorraine de 1048 à
1139', _Mémoires de la Société d'archéologie lorraine et du Musée historique
lorrain_ 62 (1912) pp. 153-154, repinted Nancy (1915) p. 58]. He noted that
she was also known as Petronilla, considering this her second name.



George Poull followed & agreed with Duvernoy on these points [see _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue la Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991), p. 25.



Peter Stewart

Hans Vogels

Re: Montaigu family

Legg inn av Hans Vogels » 18 apr 2005 19:06:41

John,

I would not recommend this website. It has marriage suggestions that
have long been cancelled. It looks like old and recent information
brushed together.

With regards,
Hans Vogels

carmi47@msn.com ("John Parsons") wrote in message news:<BAY7-F146F8FD9BAF33F2B4691D9B2370@phx.gbl>...
Some information on this family can be found at

http://home.wxs.nl/~voort359/home3mntgu.html

From this site a conjectural pedigree might be constructed beginning with a
Roger de Montaigu, perhaps b ca 1050 (no date of death). He m. NF and was
father of:

1. NF m. Thomas de Boves, lord of Coucy
2. Conon/Cuno de Montaigu, b. ca 1064 [seems a bit early if his father was
b. ca 1050].

The said Conon/Cuno participated in the first crusade and d. ?1106. He m.
Ida de Fournon and was father of:

1. Goscelo/Gothelon b. ca 1080, fl. 1140 m. Ermentrude de Grandpre (no issue
indicated*).
2. Lambert de Montaigu, fl. 1096-1140

Lambert de Montaigu fl. 1096-1140; he founded the monastery of Neufmoustier
at Huy, near Liege. He m. Petronille a/k/a Gertrude [not identified as "of
Louvain"] and was the father of

1. Gertrude m. de Nesle

I am still not 100% sure that the wife of Lambert de Montaigu was really a
dau. of Henry III of Louvain; proof from a reliable source seems still to be
lacking. Perhaps an answer may be found among the charters of the monastery
of Neufmoustier, if any such survive.

*I have a note on a scrap of paper that appears to date from my
undergraduate days long since, showing that NF daughter of Gozelon/Gothelon
de Montaigu m. Dietrich of Wasserberg, count of Teisterbant. But I have not
found a count of Teisterbant among the Wasserberg family.

Regards

John P.

Peter Stewart

Re: Petronella of Lotharingen Re: Montaigu family

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 apr 2005 02:03:36

Hans Vogel wrote:

The source for this is an Dutch article by dr. H. Bruch,
"Heette gravin Petronilla (van Holland) werkelijk Geertrui?",
published in De Nederlandsche Leeuw jrg. CXI, 1994,
kolom 217-223. He based his opinion on a chronological
review of the known historical sources.

Rijmgenealogie (ca. 1123-1125):
Petronella halfsister of the Saxon duke Lotharius, the new
emperor (no literal Latin quote, he points to an earlier article
of his hand "De eerste graven van Holland", in Holland,
regionaal-historisch tijdschrift 18 (1986) page 12)

Ekkehard (died ca. 1130) in Monumenta Germaniae
Scriptores VI, page 261:
a noblewoman, whose name name is not mentioned, the
sister of duke Lotharius (ubi matrona quedam, cuius nomen
excidit, soror nimirum Lotharii ducis ..)

Annalista Saxo (ca. 1139) in Monumenta Germaniae
Scriptores VI, page 759:
the sister of duke Liuderus, named Geertrui or Petronilla
(ubi soror Liuderi ducis, Gertrudis sive Petronella,...)

Chronographus Saxo (ca. 1188):
countess Geertrui, ....., sister of duke Lotharius
(Gertruidis comitissa de regione quae vulgo Hollandt vocatur,
soror Lotharii Saxonie ducis imperatori rebellat)

All later sources have just copied "Geertrui" or the
"Geertrui named Petronilla".

Thanks, Hans - it isn't clear to me why a paper specifically addressing
the question of this lady's putative double name would not give the
earliest source calling her just by the preferred name of Petonilla,
along with the later & indecisive evidence, merely referring instead to
another paper in a different publication from 8 years before. Do you
have access to this, to let us know the language used? The title
suggests some definite record/s of a Countess of Holland - not just a
half-sister of Emperor Lothar - called simply Petronilla.

I would expect that an argument beyond chronology must be mounted in
order to establish that these slightly later sources adding or giving
only "Gertrud" were mistaken, and that Duvernoy was wrong in concluding
that she had two names.

Peter Stewart

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