Count of Montaigu
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
wim
Count of Montaigu
Hello,
I would be glad to find some information about the ancestry of the
first Count of Montaigu, Gozelo, whose son Cono married with Ide de
Fouron.
This Gozelo married with Ste. Ermengarde of Aspel and of
Rumigny-Florennes, later with Ermentrude de Grandpre.
Thanks for some feedback, Wim
I would be glad to find some information about the ancestry of the
first Count of Montaigu, Gozelo, whose son Cono married with Ide de
Fouron.
This Gozelo married with Ste. Ermengarde of Aspel and of
Rumigny-Florennes, later with Ermentrude de Grandpre.
Thanks for some feedback, Wim
-
Gjest
Re: Count of Montaigu
Dear Wim,
A very interesting question, but one which I don`t have an
answer to. There were other men of that name at that time or slightly earlier,
who may or may not have any connection to him. Gozelo / Gozelon, Duke of Lower
Lorraine being one, the various Spanish Gonzalos being another instance of
the name. sorry not to be of more help.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
A very interesting question, but one which I don`t have an
answer to. There were other men of that name at that time or slightly earlier,
who may or may not have any connection to him. Gozelo / Gozelon, Duke of Lower
Lorraine being one, the various Spanish Gonzalos being another instance of
the name. sorry not to be of more help.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
RE: COUNT OF MONTAIGU
Any ideas on dates? there were many counts of many Montaigus?
regards
Peter (de Loriol)
regards
Peter (de Loriol)
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Count of Montaigu
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
The last thing I want to do is start another hoohaa over name spelling,
but I don't think these two names, Gozelon and Gonzalo, represent
variants of the same name - that the similarity is coincidental.
taf
Dear Wim,
A very interesting question, but one which I don`t have an
answer to. There were other men of that name at that time or slightly earlier,
who may or may not have any connection to him. Gozelo / Gozelon, Duke of Lower
Lorraine being one, the various Spanish Gonzalos being another instance of
the name. sorry not to be of more help.
The last thing I want to do is start another hoohaa over name spelling,
but I don't think these two names, Gozelon and Gonzalo, represent
variants of the same name - that the similarity is coincidental.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Count of Montaigu
Dear Todd,
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century, unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century, unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Count of Montaigu
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
It was not only the distance, but the origin of the Spanish name that
suggested that they were distunct - Gundesalvez. It occured to me that
Gozelon and Jocelin would sound the same when spoken. Perhaps there is
something there, but I don't know.
taf
Dear Todd,
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century, unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
It was not only the distance, but the origin of the Spanish name that
suggested that they were distunct - Gundesalvez. It occured to me that
Gozelon and Jocelin would sound the same when spoken. Perhaps there is
something there, but I don't know.
taf
-
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Count of Montaigu
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
I should think that the initial sounds of the two names, 'Gozelon' and
'Jocelin' were quite distinct enough, (at that time), to ascribe different
origins. What would help would be someone familiar enough with Old French,
(ancien français, ou français ancien?), to ascertain the origins of these
two names.
Ford
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Todd,
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a
pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century,
unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
It was not only the distance, but the origin of the Spanish name that
suggested that they were distunct - Gundesalvez. It occured to me that
Gozelon and Jocelin would sound the same when spoken. Perhaps there is
something there, but I don't know.
taf
I should think that the initial sounds of the two names, 'Gozelon' and
'Jocelin' were quite distinct enough, (at that time), to ascribe different
origins. What would help would be someone familiar enough with Old French,
(ancien français, ou français ancien?), to ascertain the origins of these
two names.
Ford
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Count of Montaigu
""Stanford Mommaerts-Browne"" <StanfordMommaerts@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:008b01c5430e$1577c0e0$79890d44@om.cox.net...
Marie-Thérèse Morlet [ in _Les noms de personne sur le territoire de
l'ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe siècle_, vol I (Paris, 1971)] treats these
as variants of the same name - the shift from Goz to Jos occurred also with
Gozfrid/Josfred and other names with the same initial element.
Peter Stewart
news:008b01c5430e$1577c0e0$79890d44@om.cox.net...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Todd,
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a
pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century,
unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
It was not only the distance, but the origin of the Spanish name that
suggested that they were distunct - Gundesalvez. It occured to me that
Gozelon and Jocelin would sound the same when spoken. Perhaps there is
something there, but I don't know.
taf
I should think that the initial sounds of the two names, 'Gozelon' and
'Jocelin' were quite distinct enough, (at that time), to ascribe different
origins. What would help would be someone familiar enough with Old
French,
(ancien français, ou français ancien?), to ascertain the origins of these
two names.
Marie-Thérèse Morlet [ in _Les noms de personne sur le territoire de
l'ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe siècle_, vol I (Paris, 1971)] treats these
as variants of the same name - the shift from Goz to Jos occurred also with
Gozfrid/Josfred and other names with the same initial element.
Peter Stewart
-
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Count of Montaigu
Thanks, Peter. Still might help to knoww meaning of names, though.
F
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
F
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
""Stanford Mommaerts-Browne"" <StanfordMommaerts@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:008b01c5430e$1577c0e0$79890d44@om.cox.net...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Count of Montaigu
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Todd,
No doubt You`re correct . Spain to Lorraine is a
pretty
good distance for these families to cover in the eleventh century,
unless You
were a nomad, a Norse raider or a Crusader.
It was not only the distance, but the origin of the Spanish name that
suggested that they were distunct - Gundesalvez. It occured to me that
Gozelon and Jocelin would sound the same when spoken. Perhaps there is
something there, but I don't know.
taf
I should think that the initial sounds of the two names, 'Gozelon' and
'Jocelin' were quite distinct enough, (at that time), to ascribe
different
origins. What would help would be someone familiar enough with Old
French,
(ancien français, ou français ancien?), to ascertain the origins of
these
two names.
Marie-Thérèse Morlet [ in _Les noms de personne sur le territoire de
l'ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe siècle_, vol I (Paris, 1971)] treats these
as variants of the same name - the shift from Goz to Jos occurred also
with
Gozfrid/Josfred and other names with the same initial element.
Peter Stewart
-
Patrick Henin
Re: Count of Montaigu
"wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:731045e.0504160634.436d01ff@posting.google.com...
Gozelon de Montaigu (°1028-+1055Marloie, bur.St Hubert)
Montaigu: from Latin Mons Acutus, (sharp mount),on the left bank of the
Ourthe River near the village of Marcourt (Laroche)
Count of Behogne ( ancient name of Laroche).All these places now in Belgian
province of Luxemburg)
= Gozelon de Behogne ( = Gauzhelm,Gothelon,Gozelin,Gozilon)
X Ermengarde de Harzé (§des Comtes de Grandpré en Champagne), desc.from the
Comtes Palatins du Rhin
From there
Conon de Montaigu ( Ct of Montaigu, advocatus of Dinant,Lord of Rochefort)
sold some of his estate in Nassogne to join the Crusaders.Participated with
his eldest son Gozelon (who died in Antioch1097)
Came back and founded a chapel and the Abb of Neufmoustier with Pierre
L'Ermite 1101
His other son Thibaud de Fouron-Fauquemont (Voeren-Valkenburg in Dutch)
inher. his mother's estates (Thibaud de Montaigu !1086)
Sorry I have no sources.Thierry Strasser could help, I think.
Hope this helps a little,
Patrick.
news:731045e.0504160634.436d01ff@posting.google.com...
Hello,
I would be glad to find some information about the ancestry of the
first Count of Montaigu, Gozelo, whose son Cono married with Ide de
Fouron.
Here's what I have about the first Count of Montaigu:
Gozelon de Montaigu (°1028-+1055Marloie, bur.St Hubert)
Montaigu: from Latin Mons Acutus, (sharp mount),on the left bank of the
Ourthe River near the village of Marcourt (Laroche)
Count of Behogne ( ancient name of Laroche).All these places now in Belgian
province of Luxemburg)
= Gozelon de Behogne ( = Gauzhelm,Gothelon,Gozelin,Gozilon)
X Ermengarde de Harzé (§des Comtes de Grandpré en Champagne), desc.from the
Comtes Palatins du Rhin
From there
Conon de Montaigu ( Ct of Montaigu, advocatus of Dinant,Lord of Rochefort)
sold some of his estate in Nassogne to join the Crusaders.Participated with
his eldest son Gozelon (who died in Antioch1097)
Came back and founded a chapel and the Abb of Neufmoustier with Pierre
L'Ermite 1101
His other son Thibaud de Fouron-Fauquemont (Voeren-Valkenburg in Dutch)
inher. his mother's estates (Thibaud de Montaigu !1086)
Sorry I have no sources.Thierry Strasser could help, I think.
Hope this helps a little,
Patrick.
-
Hans Vogels
Re: Count of Montaigu
Wim,
Alan V. Murray in his "The Crusader Kindom of Jerusalem. A Dynastic
History 1099-1125" (Prosopographica et Genealogica, Oxford 2000),
189-190, tells us of a probable relationship of count Cono of Montaigu
with duke Godfrey of Bouillon.
"Cuno de Monte Acuto or Cono comes de Monteacuto Leodiensis dyocesis
was the eldest son of Gozelo, count of Behogne (+ 1064), and
Ermentrude of Harzé, a noblewoman who held lands in the Hesbaye."
"Before 1028 Gozelo was enfeoffed with the county of Huy."
"Nevertheless a kinship is indicated by the name Gozelo, borne by
Cono's father as well as his eldest son, as well as in several
generations of the Ardennes-Bouillon dynasty, although not,
significantly, by the Luxembourg and Bar branches of the Ardennes
lineage. A further link may have been via Ermentrude, who was a blood
relative (proximus in sanguine) of Henry of Verdun, himself known to
have been related to the Ardennes-Bouillon family."
Your assumption that Gozelo married first with Ste. Ermengarde of
Aspel
and of Rumigny-Florennes is most likely mistaken. Both persons are
associated with the Southern part of the Dutch province of Limburg.
Ermengard of Aspel is known to be a daughter of Godizo. Her unnamed
mother married tree times. Godizo (Godfried) was her first husband. He
was a son of a Richizo (Richwin).
Aan je voornaam te oordelen kan ik je in het Nederlands verder
verwijzen naar een brochure (10) van Henk Verdonk "Ermentrud, een
Utrechtse gravin?", Lelystad 1996, 44 pagina's. De brochure is te
bestellen bij H. Verdonk, Tjalk 42-80, 8232 NB Lelystad, Nederland. Of
anders kan ik je buiten de nieuwsgroep om verder op weg helpen. Deze
brochure handeld over de Nederlandse nakomelingen van Godizo.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
adsl596083@tiscali.nl (wim) wrote in message news:<731045e.0504160634.436d01ff@posting.google.com>...
Alan V. Murray in his "The Crusader Kindom of Jerusalem. A Dynastic
History 1099-1125" (Prosopographica et Genealogica, Oxford 2000),
189-190, tells us of a probable relationship of count Cono of Montaigu
with duke Godfrey of Bouillon.
"Cuno de Monte Acuto or Cono comes de Monteacuto Leodiensis dyocesis
was the eldest son of Gozelo, count of Behogne (+ 1064), and
Ermentrude of Harzé, a noblewoman who held lands in the Hesbaye."
"Before 1028 Gozelo was enfeoffed with the county of Huy."
"Nevertheless a kinship is indicated by the name Gozelo, borne by
Cono's father as well as his eldest son, as well as in several
generations of the Ardennes-Bouillon dynasty, although not,
significantly, by the Luxembourg and Bar branches of the Ardennes
lineage. A further link may have been via Ermentrude, who was a blood
relative (proximus in sanguine) of Henry of Verdun, himself known to
have been related to the Ardennes-Bouillon family."
Your assumption that Gozelo married first with Ste. Ermengarde of
Aspel
and of Rumigny-Florennes is most likely mistaken. Both persons are
associated with the Southern part of the Dutch province of Limburg.
Ermengard of Aspel is known to be a daughter of Godizo. Her unnamed
mother married tree times. Godizo (Godfried) was her first husband. He
was a son of a Richizo (Richwin).
Aan je voornaam te oordelen kan ik je in het Nederlands verder
verwijzen naar een brochure (10) van Henk Verdonk "Ermentrud, een
Utrechtse gravin?", Lelystad 1996, 44 pagina's. De brochure is te
bestellen bij H. Verdonk, Tjalk 42-80, 8232 NB Lelystad, Nederland. Of
anders kan ik je buiten de nieuwsgroep om verder op weg helpen. Deze
brochure handeld over de Nederlandse nakomelingen van Godizo.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
adsl596083@tiscali.nl (wim) wrote in message news:<731045e.0504160634.436d01ff@posting.google.com>...
Hello,
I would be glad to find some information about the ancestry of the
first Count of Montaigu, Gozelo, whose son Cono married with Ide de
Fouron.
This Gozelo married with Ste. Ermengarde of Aspel and of
Rumigny-Florennes, later with Ermentrude de Grandpre.
Thanks for some feedback, Wim
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Count of Montaigu
"Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:4263f2ce$0$28072$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
Count Gozelon of Montaigu & Behogne was most probably the man who first
occurs in an imperial diploma dated 19 April 1028, identified as Gozelon of
Huy ("in comitatu Gozelonis de Hoio"). The rulers of petty countships at
that time & place were often designated by their current place of residence.
He died in 1064, not 1055, supposedly struck down by divine retribution
after a night of revels when his followers plundered serfs belonging to
Saint-Hubert abbey. In dying he expressed a wish to be buried there, and his
widow made reparations to arrange this.
The genealogy of this family was established by Charles-Gustave Roland in
'Les seigneurs et comtes de Rochefort', _Annales de la Société archéologique
de Namur_ 20 (1893) 63-144 & 330-447 (reprinted Brussels, 1982).
According to Roland there were two more sons between Gozelon & Thibaud:
Count Lambert of Clermont, who succeeded their father Conon as count of
Montaigu & seigneur of Rochefort, and Henri, archdeacon of Liège.
Peter Stewart
news:4263f2ce$0$28072$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"wim" <adsl596083@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:731045e.0504160634.436d01ff@posting.google.com...
Hello,
I would be glad to find some information about the ancestry of the
first Count of Montaigu, Gozelo, whose son Cono married with Ide de
Fouron.
Here's what I have about the first Count of Montaigu:
Gozelon de Montaigu (°1028-+1055Marloie, bur.St Hubert)
Montaigu: from Latin Mons Acutus, (sharp mount),on the left bank of the
Ourthe River near the village of Marcourt (Laroche)
Count of Behogne ( ancient name of Laroche).All these places now in
Belgian
province of Luxemburg)
= Gozelon de Behogne ( = Gauzhelm,Gothelon,Gozelin,Gozilon)
X Ermengarde de Harzé (§des Comtes de Grandpré en Champagne), desc.from
the
Comtes Palatins du Rhin
Count Gozelon of Montaigu & Behogne was most probably the man who first
occurs in an imperial diploma dated 19 April 1028, identified as Gozelon of
Huy ("in comitatu Gozelonis de Hoio"). The rulers of petty countships at
that time & place were often designated by their current place of residence.
He died in 1064, not 1055, supposedly struck down by divine retribution
after a night of revels when his followers plundered serfs belonging to
Saint-Hubert abbey. In dying he expressed a wish to be buried there, and his
widow made reparations to arrange this.
The genealogy of this family was established by Charles-Gustave Roland in
'Les seigneurs et comtes de Rochefort', _Annales de la Société archéologique
de Namur_ 20 (1893) 63-144 & 330-447 (reprinted Brussels, 1982).
From there
Conon de Montaigu ( Ct of Montaigu, advocatus of Dinant,Lord of Rochefort)
sold some of his estate in Nassogne to join the Crusaders.Participated
with
his eldest son Gozelon (who died in Antioch1097)
Came back and founded a chapel and the Abb of Neufmoustier with Pierre
L'Ermite 1101
His other son Thibaud de Fouron-Fauquemont (Voeren-Valkenburg in Dutch)
inher. his mother's estates (Thibaud de Montaigu !1086)
According to Roland there were two more sons between Gozelon & Thibaud:
Count Lambert of Clermont, who succeeded their father Conon as count of
Montaigu & seigneur of Rochefort, and Henri, archdeacon of Liège.
Peter Stewart